al_roethlisberger Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 ....unless *really* well engineered, I honestly don't like driving turbo-charged vehicles too much. I like a nice strong pull from the bottom, linear accelleration... not a spool, lag, *WHAM* sort of affair(dayum, that sounds pretty racey ) Anyway, I know some turbo applications do not perform this way, but most that I have driven tend to still exhibit this tendency. The best driving turbos I've encountered are either multi-turbo solutions(different pressure per RPM), or low pressure solutions. But the former is rare and expensive, and the latter generally isn't a "performance" solution. I like superchargers better, which as pointed out earlier in the thread, is what is really fitted to the bike anyway al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 ....unless *really* well engineered, I honestly don't like driving turbo-charged vehicles too much...[snipola!]I like superchargers better, which as pointed out earlier in the thread, is what is really fitted to the bike anyway 49351[/snapback] I hear you, but of course the big appeal to turbo- vs. super-charging is the efficiency angle: turbos utilize that waste heat blowing out the exhaust to do more work, whereas super-chargers impose a load on the engine at all rpms [which detracts from their ultimate power increase.] What I'm amazed about is that nobody has gone the obvious [well, at least to me!] route of putting a non-wastegated turbo on the exhaust driving an alternator [1] , and then using an electrically-driven supercharger on the intake.[2] Like I said, it seems pretty obvious to me... [bTW, all ideas contained herein are copyright 2005 *me*; don't bother trying to patent it, I've got prior art! ] Ride on, 1: with suitable electronic controls, 'natch, so that the electrical input/load is tied to turbo rpm. 2: That is tied to logic that merely maintains some predetermined boost over ambient, say, 2psi. Nice, linear response across the rev range, no serious loads on the system, excellent efficiency all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeBenGuzzi Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 [bTW, all ideas contained herein are copyright 2005 *me*; don't bother trying to patent it, I've got prior art! ]no serious loads on the system, excellent efficiency all around. 49417[/snapback] 2 things you didn't say 'patent pending' so I went ahead and filed for one. and second if it doesn't do much why spend all the money and time to get it to work I want that baby to snort for that kind of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 Interesting idea WRT to the electric supercharger, but I suspect this is not a new idea, and the energy lost through all that conversion is no trivial thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 Interesting idea WRT to the electric supercharger, but I suspect this is not a new idea, and the energy lost through all that conversion is no trivial thing. 49426[/snapback] Energy lost Don't forget, w/ no wastegate, *all* the gases would go thru the turbo; normally, you can't utilize all that boost [hence the wastegate, or running a turbo that's big enough to handle the volume but has too much lag, etc. etc. etc.] Obviously, the idea is to extract greater efficiency from the engine, & typically, conversion losses are antithetical to this, but since all the power from the turbo *can't* be utilized due to blowing up the engine from detonation, etc., the conversion losses become irrelevant since you can make up the difference by running the turbo at peak rpm at all times, and just tapping the batteries for juice for starting/lighting/supercharging as needed. Clearly, this approach would not have been possible before high-speed computing become so easy & cheap, but in today's world, it's a piece o' cake. Like I said, it seems to make sense to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 2 things you didn't say 'patent pending' so I went ahead and filed for one. and second if it doesn't do much why spend all the money and time to get it to work I want that baby to snort for that kind of effort. 49420[/snapback] 1st thing: "patent pending" is just a warning that "go ahead & copy me: I'll come after you later & waste all my profits prosecuting you." It's like putting up a sign saying "Trespassers will be shot" in a state like CA or MA where it's almost illegal just to own a gun... Go ahead & try to patent my idea; you'll lose, as "prior art" means you didn't originate the idea. So no patent... 2nd thing: Big boost kills engines. If big boost is all you're after, Al's driveability argument carries no water for you anyway; just hook up a turbo & go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeBenGuzzi Posted April 26, 2005 Share Posted April 26, 2005 1st thing: "patent pending" is just a warning that "go ahead & copy me: I'll come after you later & waste all my profits prosecuting you." It's like putting up a sign saying "Trespassers will be shot" in a state like CA or MA where it's almost illegal just to own a gun... Go ahead & try to patent my idea; you'll lose, as "prior art" means you didn't originate the idea. So no patent... 2nd thing: Big boost kills engines. If big boost is all you're after, Al's driveability argument carries no water for you anyway; just hook up a turbo & go! 49795[/snapback] Pish posh I can draw pretty pictures and say I did it first but really I don't care. The second thing is then if there isn't much of a gain what again is the point? I feel lost and alone in the dark cold world of reasonable thinking. I've seen turbo setups. Hokay so we got a Turbo lets say reasonable at $1,500 that could be low and then the Super charger kit Electric no less whats that? 5000 euro for the one on that site lets that we use that and convert it so $6500 so nows we're at $8,000 for mods not including labor or nickle and dimes. I say I can buy a much faster better engineered bike for $8,000 Hell I only paid $6,900 for my Goose. I'm one of those ppl that can't ever see putting more mods on something than it costs I'd just buy something better then. call me crazy. Now if youre talking like something a big name company could do as an experiment to see how it flies I could see that but why would they ever want to produce it. If we have all these failure problems now as it is, on a lot of different bikes too then you multiply the complexity of the entire setup Whoa I'd just walk away brother. *clap* I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jsavola Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 I hear you, but of course the big appeal to turbo- vs. super-charging is the efficiency angle: turbos utilize that waste heat blowing out the exhaust to do more work, whereas super-chargers impose a load on the engine at all rpms [which detracts from their ultimate power increase.] I just have to comment on that ... There's one detail that some supercharger setups have missed. There is no reason to create pressure when no pressure is needed, as the supercharger regenerates the pressure instantly. The charges consumes virtually no power when not generating pressure even though it's running. With some thinking it's quite possible to achieve fuel consumption and behaviour of a non-charged bike on "steady running" conditions. MotoJussi & California Kompressor MotoJussi & California Kompressor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted June 12, 2005 Author Share Posted June 12, 2005 so the jackal is running? How does it drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steve_W Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 ...the question I have to ask is WHY? Finland = Long winter. Long winter = Lots of time to ruminate on, um, "shortcomings" of current machinery. Lots of time = Project! As most of us know, there's a weird psychosis that sets in when you can't/aren't willing to ride. When I had my FJ12, I spent winters looking at the Wiseco catalog (1314cc, just what that bike needed, more power!), or trying to figure out how to put 17" wheels on both ends, etc., etc. Every spring, I got back on the still-mostly-stock FJ, gave the throttle a good twist, and let it fire me down the road. This guy has a higher-order version of that psychosis; the difference is that he actually does what he dreams about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jsavola Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 so the jackal is running? How does it drive? 54005[/snapback] Like a dream. I have 8000 km on dial for this summer, almost all the kilometers have been "with boost". In the 1st days I had a problem with injection but since then .... OhMyGod... What can I say ... The performance is linear; there are no surprises. There is no penalty in using more revs, either. I usually kick one gear down when passing, just for the fun of it... Unfortunately I've been doing other things than dynoing the bike, so I can give no numbers, but the mid range torque is quite fantastic. The bike does not wheelie when accelerating, it is too long and heavy for that. In finland we have top legal speed for trucks 80 km/h. When I pass a truck, I oftentimes have to wait a while right behind the truck, so when I start to pass, I start with the speed of 80 km/h. When I pass the cabin of the truck, I have 150 km/h on the speedo. I suppose that's not supposed to happen with plain vanilla Guzzi California Will keep you posted about dyno charts etc when I have them. I have some really (and I mean _really_) nasty ideas for the next winter but will not bore you guys before I have something to show :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 The pump isn't all that expensive. A rebuilt Eaton (Jaguar) unit can be had for about $500.00 US. It's plenty big enough to feed a 5 liter engine, so there have to be other smaller ones around for the same kind of $$$. I just purchased an AutoRotor twin-screw for my car, for $2000. Everyone needs a project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beauchemin Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Regarding a supercharger on an air-cooled engine... isn't heat dissipation a problem? I'm no expert, but I do know that more power = more heat, so I would expect that water-cooling would be required for reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Regarding a supercharger on an air-cooled engine... isn't heat dissipation a problem? I'm no expert, but I do know that more power = more heat, so I would expect that water-cooling would be required for reliability. 59596[/snapback] Or better yet... since you've got all the boost the engine can handle, just run that air thru a bunch of bubblers in the bottom of a water tank & take the air out the top. You get the best of both worlds: cooler intake with (super)saturated humidity [water injection] for more power! Ride on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Water injection doesn't increase power, it lowers flame temperature and allows you to run higher compression (or boost) without detonation and it's that which increases power. If the water is already evaporated you lose the cooling effect of the latent heat demand, so there is less point to it. In fact, for the same charge density, the presence of water dilutes the fuel / air mixture and hence will reduce power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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