Help please

[Guest Brian Robson]

I can only assume a faulty bearing Al, as when the bevel box was off last for the needle bearing, I span the bearing and it felt smooth, there were no marks on the seal. As the axle locked and twisted it forced the needle bearing inner to push out through the washer and grind/weld itself onto the swinging arm.

There may be a need for a new swinging arm as now the axle hole is ovalised, although it may be possible to insert a sleeve the diameter of the axle and weld it into place...or not, because mainly I'm only guessing. Either way its a new swinging arm or a repaint of the back end of the original

It was hard to watch though as sparks flew from the grinder on the axle and then a lead hammer pounded on the axle to remove it from the hub.

Its a credit to the quality of the people in this dealership though; Gord, Gord and Brian, that Gord worked on the bike immediately at 5.00 pm, whilst Brian looked through the parts numbers and Gord the owner offered me the loan of his own personal V11!! (which didn't work out as the fork lift sprung a hydraulic leak!!. I obviously induced this mechanical bad karma by touching the fork lift as the borrowed truck blew its radiator 1 Km from home). Gord has since offered the axle and nut off his bike as this will be ordered from MG USA, and is getting any speciality bearings required from MI in Seattle.

In disaster, sometimes there is a light that shines through. These people are a credit to their profession, and I'm going to add some fuel to a smouldering fire, by saying that if you choose to buy parts mail order rather than through your local store, this type of service will disappear.

[Steve G.]

I'm in full agreement with you Brian. For 2 yrs now I've been eyeing up the Ferracci rear fender eliminator, and was going to mail order it from Ferracci, but when I found out that Chilliwack M.G. had it in stock, I drove up there and bought it. Paid more, but I may need that dealer.

With regard to the bearings, it is clear that the habit of Moto Guzzi to source partsbased on price alone, including Polish bearings, has reared it's head once again, luckily not rearing it's head when you were doing your usual buck/25 down Hwy 1. Heck, I've got the original wheel bearings on my 26yr old Japper, untouched with no issues. I kind of get pissed off when I hear stories of this happening. Makes me want to slap around the purchasing manager at M.G.!

Make sure Gord carefully takes the bearing seal off each bearing, load the things with good quality grease, and slide the seals back on the bearing. Even German or Japanese bearings are assembled to try these days!

Ciao, Steve G.

P.S. Brian, I have to thank you for temporarily borrowing my black cloud from me, with regard to the having everything you touch bugger up. That's the usual story with me.

[belfastguzzi]

I do think that I know what happened, and yes, it is related to the work I had done.

I, myself had put in a new inner bearing for a week (there was play in the bevel box and I needed to ride for work) and the old needle bearing wore the surface a little. So Gord, instead of putting in a new one (with the intention of getting me going again without $70 for a new inner) had surface ground and polished the old one, this small reduction in diameter has allowed the inner bearing to push through the washer and then "weld" itself to the axle and the inner face of the right swinging arm.

I cannot fault Gord's intention, and will gladly pay the $150 for a new needle and inner bearing, but I will ask them to look at the labour and be somewhat flexible.

It was their intent to help me out and get me on the road, and if they can get the axle out that will make me happy

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Brian, as you may know I'm replacing these bearings at the moment and the needle roller bearing has been grief.

What are your prices? are these Guzzi prices? they are mad!

 

The needle roller bearing is £2 (I just bought another new one today, just in case). £2 must only be a few dollars? The most expensive part is the inner ring. I got one without the drilled hole, but either way they are the same price: £7. When you say 'inner bearing, you seem to mean that plain inner ring.

 

If you mean one of the ball race inner bearings, they're only £8 anyway.

These are SKF, as original.

 

You can't mean $70 for the plain steel ring, can you?

[belfastguzzi]

I'm confused now – by what you say about problem of the inner 'bearing' (the inner ring) pushing through the washer. The original fit is that it does go through the washer. That wasn't your problem. The face of the inner ring butts against the swing arm (not the washer) – on my bike anyway. Same with the bearing on the other, brake, side. It must be these inner rings and spacers that hold the axle/wheel in place when the swingarm is tightened up on them. Hence the bearing failure that we are getting, from new, when the too-short spacer has been fitted by MG. It seems that normally this inner ring should be static and the needle rollers turn as the axle revolves. Maybe there was a problem with your needle roller cage and it was too tight on the inner ring, either because of rust or bad fitting or some other damage?

 

This comfirms that I should be worried about the new bearing that I fitted. As per the other thread, the bad needle roller bearing was torture to get out. The shell was stuck solid. I eventually got it out in bits and fitted a new bearing. I assumed that it should be knocked in as far as possible, right up to the inner washer. Surely it will move right in when the axle nut is tightened up anyway? When the bearing was out, the inner ring fitted very nicely inside it and turned smoothly. The trouble is that, now that the bearing is fitted in the drive box, the inner ring has to be forced in and is too tight in the rollers. It turns roughly and only with force. This can't be right and your story tells me that this could lead to a similar lock-up. What has gone wrong?

 

It looks like I will have to take the new roller bearing out (which I dread) and try again with another new one. Is the housing too small for the bearing shell? Why is the bearing so tight on the inner sleeve when it is fully inserted?

[belfastguzzi]

OK. The pleasures and perils of home mechanicing: looks like I got it wrong the first time round.

 

I've knocked out the new, 'too tight', bearing. Had to take out the rollers and then the shell.

 

I carefully drifted another new roller bearing in, all the time checking that the inner ring would fit freely. This time I didn't knock it right in. The outer face is flush with the drivebox sleeve that the bearing sits in. With the washer sitting on top, the inner ring does not now protrude as far as the outer face of the washer. So, unless it closes-up when the axle bolt is tightened, this means that the inner ring does not press against the swing arm. It is the washer and then the sleeve in the drive box that take the pressure. The inner bearing ring probably remains free to move and to rotate.

 

It seems that when I drove the first bearing right in, it caused some slight damage that was enough to cause a tight fit between the rollers and the inner ring, that would soon have wrecked the whole bearing if I had gone ahead and assembled the wheel like that: possibly leading to the sort of result that Brian reports.

 

Hope this may be useful to someone else doing the job.

Can anyone confirm that the needle roller bearing outer face should fit flush with the housing sleeve and that the washer sits proud, with the inner ring slightly inside it?

 

Though N.B., Brian: the inner ring still fits through the washer hole, so 'grinding it down' wasn't a problem in that sense. It didn't make the ring smaller so that it slipped though. At full-size it does slip through anyway. It just shouldn't lock-up tight, it should have a bit of movement, or so it seems at the moment, until someone says otherwise or until I get the whole lot assembled and fitted and maybe observe something different.

[Guest Brian Robson]

You are dead right about the inner ring, it does fit inside the washer and then against the arm. The conclusion we reached is that once the inner bearing (the large ball bearing visible on the inside of the bevel box) locked against the axle, this twisted the axle, and the axle hex head rotated in the swinging arm and locked itself tight........I think, although I'm still not sure in what order whatever happened, but what happened certainly did and it does have me worried about the strength of bevel boxes.

I would regularly get around 30,000Km from quality chain and sprockets, costing ~ $300,but in 80,000Km this shaft drive has so far cost me over $850, and whilst the cost may be equivalent, chain and sprockets have never locked the wheel and left me by the side of the road.....it will be difficult to regain confidence as I ride although a combination of time on the bike and a short attention span will no doubt help.

As for the cost of the bearings, I used the MG parts which were a ludicrous price, but initially the bike was under warranty, and in the second case the shop brought in pattern bearings that reduced the cost.

Work, the lack of time and having limited mechanical skills led me to let the store do the work.

[Paul Minnaert]

Keep in mind that the movement of the reardrive arround the axcle isnt that much, and never gets speed where anything is welded. I made a picture of how it is supposed to look. The inside bearing ring sticks 2mm out the outer bearing.

[belfastguzzi]

Keep in mind that the movement of the reardrive arround the axcle isnt that much, and never gets speed where anything is welded. I made a picture of how it is supposed to look. The inside bearing ring sticks 2mm out the outer bearing.

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That is helpful. It looks like the inner ring will still sit proud when you put the washer on. Should the swingarm tighten against the inner ring or the washer, or both? Maybe it all pulls together so that they are flush when the axle is tightened. If you have a washer and can take a photo I would be interested to see what it looks like in its location, compared to th eheight of th einner ring. I will take a photo shortly.

 

Brian, my drive box inner bearing had a very slight bit of play, but nowhere near as much as the bad wheel bearing. I suppose that you have replaced your wheel bearings before but not the inner drive box bearing, so it could have been slowly getting more damaged over a longer period of time? It seems to me that the needle roller bearing has a lot of potential for easily and quickly getting damaged and causing trouble.

[belfastguzzi]

I have taken some photos.

 

Drive box, needle-roller bearing inner ring position, photos here.

 

You will see that with my housing, the inner-ring sits below the other faces. However when it is pulled out, to the maximum distance that the inner captive washer (that the bearing ring sits against) will travel, it appears like Paul's photo. I guess that when fitted, the ring and outer washer should pull into position to be flush, with both sitting against the swingarm.

 

Paul, does your inner-ring naturally sit the way that your photo shows, when it is fitted? Can you push it further in?

I may have introduced a bit more movement into my inner-washer assembly when I tried to knock out the needle roller by hammering on the inner-washer, before I discovered that the inner-washer does not come out. It is certainly bashed and cupped but I'm hoping that won't matter too much when everything is tightened up.

 

This is one of the pics where

the bearing-ring and washer faces are sitting flush,

but above the drive-box housing and sleeve.

Does yours go like that. Paul, with the washer on and the ring pushed in?

[Paul Minnaert]

the inner ring on my photo is max inside, as you mount the drive, the tigtning of the axcle sure makes it pushed inside. ON your picture, it's going to much inside.

 

When mounted, the following is tight, from left: the big ball bearing inner ring, a long spacer inside gearbox, washer inside gearbox, inner ring from roller bearing, swingarm. In the service manual parts list nr: 36, 5,32,31

 

With your setup, it looks like the inner ring isn't sitting against the swingarm.

Your inner ring is 18mm? In your picture, the outside from the reardrive will be pushed against the swingarm. If you mount everything, wheel thight, disconnect the reardrive reaction rod. see if you can turn the reardrive nice arround the axle.

[belfastguzzi]

When mounted, the following is tight, from left: the big ball bearing inner ring, a long spacer inside gearbox, washer inside gearbox, inner ring from roller bearing, swingarm.

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Thanks Paul. The inner bearing and spacer are not in place yet. As you have reminded me, I will know what the final positions will be when I put them in.

[Guest Brian Robson]

Brian, my drive box inner bearing had a very slight bit of play, but nowhere near as much as the bad wheel  bearing. I suppose that you have replaced your wheel bearings before but not the inner drive box bearing, so it could have been slowly getting more damaged over a longer period of time? It seems to me that the needle roller bearing has a lot of potential for easily and quickly getting damaged and causing trouble.

49468[/snapback]

This inner bearing was replaced when the first needle bearing and inner ring were replaced.

From memory, my bevel box looks like Pauls with the inner ring slightly proud of the spacer, which of course makes moot about my daft suggestion that the ring had "forced" its way through said washer.

[belfastguzzi]

Inner ball bearing and spacer now in place. The spacer does push the needle roller inner ring out. It now sits very slightly higher than the outside washer.

 

[Lex]

Brain,

 

Sorry to hear about your problems but thanks for sharing them. I'd bet a lot of us will be checking the rear axle on our bike before the next ride. The thought of that happening at speed scares the $%^& out me.

 

Lex

[Guest Brian Robson]

I have had somewhat recurring troubles with the bevel box, somewhat expensive and the big factor for me is if or when it will do it again. I use the bike for work and downtime was also expensive, so I asked Gord at Valley about an 03 R1 and today I bought one and traded in the V11.

At the moment its what I need, and in a couple of years a Breva or a Griso is what I'll need.