Alex-Corsa Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Life can be simple, and to have fun with it it should be kept so, indeed! Let me trow in just two other questions: - why do engineers at BMW, VW, Mercedes or if you want GM, Rover, Guzzi, Weber-Marelli, Bosch and so on, why do they not just buy a cheap dyno, a cheap Tunelink and related stuff? Why do they not just make a quick WOT run and then after that enjoy their easy life with all that much money they get for having fun the whole half day? Still the question is not clear. But anyway to tell you the truth I don't know WTF they do with so many engineers and stuff since they can't produce (or even copy) a close to perfect engine like HONDA produces in their iVtec units.(See S2000 , NSX,ect.ect.) Perhaps they just try finding new ways to chew the "old" gum of how old technology engines will work with more power and STILL fulfilling the "new" emission specs IMO that's what they do.It's always same'ol same 'ol they'd better close and open grossery stores,or fast food stations, that's the bitter truth and let companies who really know produce engines. Let me see what they're going to do now with Honda's new gear lever system ....Guzzi is excepted cause they're producing art - what do you think is the reason for inventions like those most of the Jap bikes now have implemented in their exhaust systems? Dunno if and how they work though, their reason I guess is: Inventions towards perfection Anyway , riding a bike as well as only looking at a bike is a matter of taste,Some ride Harleys , some ride Enduros other ride supersports and other;s Guzzi's What's needed and what's not is very relative (after a point) Personally I find the most importand thing in every day use is to have a (as perfect)balnced motor running at reasonable A/F ratio if this is achieved then power won't have any serious declines, and that can be achieved with some tools and time ,to just fine tune imperfections of the company, all other are waste of time in terms of "home tuning" facilities and abilities. To all other I don't have any opinion about it But I understand what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Max power probably will be found somewhere at WOT, but surely not over the whole RPM range we use our bikes at. 71425[/snapback] From what I can tell, max power for each RPM above 4000 RPM occurs at WOT. Below about 2500 RPM, I am pretty sure it occurs at less than WOT. Between 2500 and 4000 RPM, all bets are off. These fuel injected bikes are very different than carbed guzzis. My V65 would sometimes find its top speed at 7000RPM and WOT and sometimes at the same RPM, but with a little less throttle. But my V11 is very simple to drive...you wanna go fast, downshift, hit the gas, WOT. Some do it even more simply.....they cruise at 5000RPM, and then when they want to go fast, the just hit the gas, no downshifting required. One of my pet peeves is that the dyno tuners tune at 2000RPM and WOT, which just seem plain silly if not harmful to the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Can you post the graphs that show the part throttle improvements? Regards, Derek 71414[/snapback] It's December here in Canada, so while the answer is "yes", it isn't going to be any time soon! We're busy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moto Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 It's December here in Canada, so while the answer is "yes", it isn't going to be any time soon!Does this mean the part throttle runs/tuning ghave not been done yet?We're busy!! Cool. What are you up to? Regards, Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 Does this mean the part throttle runs/tuning have not been done yet? Yes it does.... The Dyno pull was done indoors on Dec 2, 2004. Street tuning runs are proposed for April, when the snow goes! Cool. What are you up to? Mostly spinning wrenches. I have to install the Penske shock on the V-11 and dis-assemble and lube the drive shaft along with the oil changes. I might even chase the transmission leak. I also am in the throes of installing a supercharger on my 928. I might end up just drinking if some of this doesn't go well!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moto Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Yes it does.... The Dyno pull was done indoors on Dec 2, 2004. Street tuning runs are proposed for April, when the snow goes!Hmm. Then I'm confused about the claim of improved milage in your original post. Regards, Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 Hmm. Then I'm confused about the claim of improved milage in your original post. Regards, Derek 71526[/snapback] Not a claim, but one of the goals of the whole exercise. "...............which should result in notably better milage .........." Plus..... you will note that I had mistaken the lean numbers for rich in that first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moto Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Not a claim, but one of the goals of the whole exercise."...............which should result in notably better milage .........." Plus..... you will note that I had mistaken the lean numbers for rich in that first post. Right, but what I'm getting at is that 100% throttle runs say very little (if anything) about what to expect in terms of mileage. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 Right, but what I'm getting at is that 100% throttle runs say very little (if anything) about what to expect in terms of mileage. Derek 71549[/snapback] Perhaps you should re-read post #57 again............... Without the doobie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moto Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Perhaps you should re-read post #57 again............... Without the doobie! I'm sorry, but I don't smoke. I had not read post #57 before my last post. I was referring to post #1, where you said "You will note that there was no huge gain in HP or torque, but it flattened the A/F curve nicely. which should result in notably better milage becasue the curve was WAY rich above even best-power." I read post #57 just now, and I consider whether or not you will achieve the results you are after with this method to be debatable (see the ECU thread if you have not already). Regards, Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 I read post #57 just now, and I consider whether or not you will achieve the results you are after with this method to be debatable (see the ECU thread if you have not already). 71564[/snapback] My planned method is very similar to Brian's. Rather than simply debating whether or not it is doable, perhaps we could figure out how to make it doable. I am getting an immense kick out of making subtle changes to the map and road testing the effects. I may be losing my mind since I am having dreams of maps in my head. I now have the bike down to no pinging on 89 Octane. The next step is 87 Octane. Weather conditions vary the results, so I want to make sure my map is not pinging. I plan on getting a WBO2 sensor to optimize it better than my natural senses can. The greatest limitation of my senses is the inability to differentiate right/left cylinder differences. I think the WBO2 will help with that. Also, if map points show numbers outside the range of, oh say, 12.8/1 to 13.8/1, it will be a red flag to more closely scrutinize what is happening at those map points. The ECU thread (that Brian started) certainly showed that exhaust oxygen readings do not correllate accurately with optimal true A/F. WBO2 sensors, on the other hand, are a little different than other oxygen sensors. I don't understand exactly how they work, but from what I gather, they compare the ratio of oxygen in the exhaust gas to the oxygen in the air. Because it can only do this at a narrow lambda range, the sensor automatically adjust the center of the range point, depending on how much H and CO is available to be oxidized from pumping in a measure of atomospheric air. I apologise if that is totally wrong, but I can't find a good definition of how it works, other than this pretty technical piece: http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/LSU4.htm So, I am hoping that all the four wheel squids playing with WBO2 controllers are getting useful data, and that we can too. I suspect there will be readings that mislead. I'd love to see Derek monitor WBO2 readings parallel with his O2 readings and CO readings, to see if the WBO2 follows more in line with the more useful CO readings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 I read post #57 just now, and I consider whether or not you will achieve the results you are after with this method to be debatable (see the ECU thread if you have not already). Regards, Derek 71564[/snapback] Indeed.......... we shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 The ECU thread (that Brian started) certainly showed that exhaust oxygen readings do not correllate accurately with optimal true A/F.WBO2 sensors, on the other hand, are a little different than other oxygen sensors. I don't understand exactly how they work, but from what I gather, they compare the ratio of oxygen in the exhaust gas to the oxygen in the air. Because it can only do this at a narrow lambda range, the sensor automatically adjust the center of the range point, depending on how much H and CO is available to be oxidized from pumping in a measure of atomospheric air. 71566[/snapback] The WB O2 sensor is the best tool we have, and although some say that it is not correlated directly to A/F ratio, it is close enough for most engineering purposes, and is certainly close enough for mine. I prefer to get out there and do something toward attaining my goals, rather than to sit and argue minutiae, while accomplishing little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 I prefer to get out there and do something toward attaining my goals, rather than to sit and argue minutiae, while accomplishing little. 71613[/snapback] Excellent! You can be the guinea pig! Let us know what you learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted December 24, 2005 Author Share Posted December 24, 2005 Excellent! You can be the guinea pig!Let us know what you learn. 71636[/snapback] Well ya got the results from step #1 already!~! We got rid of the WOT mid-upper range lean flat spot. Merry Christmas!! More to follow in the Spring!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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