luhbo Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Just checked the suspension on my KR. Built in is a Tenni version of the same cheap marzocchi fork, the rear is WP supported. I found: front: static, empty 15mm, with my 86kg 30mm sag. Recomended 36 to 42. rear: static, empty 20mm, with my 86kg 55mm sag. Recomended also 36 to 42. The preload settings are not really ok, the front stands to high, but with full tank and tankbag it's adequate! The rear stands 10 or 15 mm to deep, maybe I should adjust the preload. And I have already reduced the oil volume to what I think is a save minimum. So I guess that at least on my bike the springs are 100% ok (for one person!). Probably on yours' as well. What I find to be important: I can see that at high speeds due to the missing wind shield and me sitting more in the back the front becomes very light! I guess I have not more but 15 or max.20mm negative stroke left then. Insufficient negative stroke makes the bike prone to every bad thing, mostly high speed wobble. I don't think I would really want to go this way and further reduce the laden sag/negative stroke. Better would probably be a somewhat softer spring to increase the dynamic sag in combination with a remarkable smaller airvolume. This would result in a quite progressive spring/suspension with all its advantages. (If you want to keep this Marzocchi things) I understood that I could build in stiffer springs and for compensation of this could cut down the preload tubes (cheap and easy). But what fore? As mentioned before, the fork "feels" already way to stiff, it doesn't follow bad roads as good as the old 35mm forks of the LM3 and 750S did it. This is what maybe gives you sometimes this uncertain feeling as soon as you ride over small and quick following bumps or defects on the road, especially while cornering. That's at least my experience. At last one interesting thing. Go to the mentioned Wilbers website and look what they offer you to solve these unladen-laden-sag-complex probs. They sell only one! Only one spring! The optimal one! But this you can get linear or progressive! No further diversication. They sell only these two for every motorcycle that has Moto Guzzi V11 written on its fat back, regardless what rider or riding style! (BTW, the progressive one has not only the best reputation in German mags, from the other one I've never heard so far.) So you have measured in millimeters the sags, probably at least three or four times to minimize any possible faults, full body - empty body, wet leather - dry leather, and then you go and buy the only available One-Fits-All replacement spring and then this finally makes you think you have invented something important as the wheel at least? Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hubert, I don't know if you're looking for any feedback here, but I noticed a few things: I assume you know how to take sag readings, including measuring laden sag while in riding position - with hands, feet, etc. exactly as you'd be on the road. Though your weight is evidently close to mine, I found your relative overall sag settings somewhat similar to the ones recently discussed here in terms of spring rate indications: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8402 By the sag numbers you gave, your front fork springs are NOT the OEM springs that come with the Marz 40 mm USD forks. The springs you have now are slightly stiff (too high rate) for your riding weight. I looked at 6 or 7 spring mfgrs. offerings before discovering the Wilbers springs on a referral. None of the other mfgrs had progressives in my target rate range. None of the spring mfgr's I looked at offered a complete range of springs in every rate category for every fork. I found especially few options for the Marz 40 mm USD fork. Many motorcycle spring mfgr's don't offer anything at all for the Marz 40 mm USD. Wilbers offers one that's probably right for most average-weight riders. I don't think you'll find any implication on the Wilbers site (in German) that "one size fits all"!!! If I weighed significantly more or less than I do, I would have selected another mfgr's springs. By the numbers you provided, your rear spring is far far far far far too soft (rate too low)!!!! I suspect that you're bottoming-out against the rubber shock cushion constantly on relatively moderate bumps and bottoming-out VERY HARD over moderate to severe bumps on a regular basis. I'm not surprised at all that you're experiencing vague steering, a "light" front end, and an "uncertain feeling" over uneven surfaces!!!!! I'd expect all of this - and lots worse - the way y'er set-up. Again, may I suggest the following site for everything you need to know to get it set up correctly: http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html Best of luck, my friend! BTW - No offense meant whatsoever, but as far as I'm concerned, your Guzzi would be a "nightmare" ride in the mountain scenario I suggested earlier in our little "hypothetical". I would under NO conditions consider it even marginally safe to ride there with the sag readings you've indicated. BAA, TJM & YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Good site for explanation Hacker. Prolly will fiddle these settings on the Buell as everything is done with nuts and screws which is civilised. And the Buell is my hooligan tool so needs to be right. V11 looks a lot more awkward. The spring shortening dodge might mean I don't have to prat about ordering parts though. Also, the V11 gets ridden slowly with the wife on the back and in the rain. Both applications that don't have the suspension working like Rossi's GP bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 V11 looks a lot more awkward. The spring shortening dodge might mean I don't have to prat about ordering parts though. Also, the V11 gets ridden slowly with the wife on the back and in the rain. Both applications that don't have the suspension working like Rossi's GP bike. Hm, Nog. Y'er "justifications list" for not setting-up the Guzzi grows progressively longer it seems. It looks like y'er up to about #10 now . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hubert, I don't know if you're looking for any feedback here, but I noticed a few things: Well, the answer is no. It's all as I wrote it, no aftermarket springs, no sag problems, no need to buy aftermarket springs. Sometimes I think you're Bicyle Repair Man, having a secret identity, what? (just joking, ofcourse ) Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Well, the answer is no. It's all as I wrote it, no aftermarket springs, no sag problems, no need to buy aftermarket springs. Sometimes I think you're Bicyle Repair Man, having a secret identity, what? (just joking, ofcourse ) Hubert Well then! There you have it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Hm, Nog. Y'er "justifications list" for not setting-up the Guzzi grows progressively longer it seems. It looks like y'er up to about #10 now . . . . . Mr Eh! Crack That Sir, I have a good mind to go measure the Guzzi sags.... Wonder if I will find they are ok, just like Hubert's bike? Hey Hubert, Are these the Marz forks from OYB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grossohc Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 So, if i get my sag measurements done on the bike do i need to change the settings again when i put some touring gear (tent,tank bag etc) I dont carry a pillion so thats ok. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 So, if i get my sag measurements done on the bike do i need to change the settings again when i put some touring gear (tent,tank bag etc) I dont carry a pillion so thats ok. Gary Eh! Crack That probably has a rack of springs front and rear and several different weights of damper oil. I think he dismantles the bike every trip and sets it up specially. Anything else would represent mortal danger bordering on negligence! I guess he'll next be working on a special rucksack so that he can carry ideal springs and spacers to re-set the bike up mid trip for slab or twisties, and ultimately before / after a heavy lunch. Slight sag overload after a bigger Mac combined with the lassitude that afflicts after a heavy lunch could represent mortal danger bordering on negligence you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 So, if i get my sag measurements done on the bike do i need to change the settings again when i put some touring gear (tent,tank bag etc) I dont carry a pillion so thats ok. Gary Gary, what percentage of the time do you carry all the gear? I don't carry anything more than a tank bag and "seat bag" and that's rare. This makes a tiny difference but because it's well-centered on the bike, it's not enough to be concerned about. I ride with a group of Guys that includes some serious cross-continent touring types with multiple bikes. They set up the springs and sags on "the boat" to accomodate the likely average load for long trips. Guys who regularly tour fully loaded 2-up, but who also ride a great deal of the time solo pick a trade-off point biased toward 2-up riding, set the sags, and leave it alone. With a Lead Wing or LT, the "compromise" doesn't make nearly as much difference as it does to a 500-lb. "Sporting" machine that gets (at least in every case I know of!) tossed about with a great deal more enthusiasm! BAA TJM & YMMV Wonder if I will find they are ok, just like Hubert's bike? Er, that being the case, best find a qualified Pro and get a professional opinion on the application of, "OK". . . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 . . . . probably has a rack of springs front and rear and several different weights of damper oil. I think he dismantles the bike every trip and sets it up specially. Anything else would represent mortal danger bordering on negligence! Actually, during the last period of time I was getting it dailed-in, I most certainly went thru 3 different damper oils and it was a routine to set up every Saturday morning before a ride by changing out either fork spacers or re-set fork tube height and comp/rebound damping settings. Once I had a solid feel for what works best on the roads where I demand most from the machine, I've left it alone. And yep, where I like to ride the best, it's dangerous NO MATTER WHAT y'er riding. IMHO anything less than a solid effort at correct setup would certainly make it MORE dangerous, and most certainly qualify as negligence!! This ain't rocket science, Gents. There's really no reason whatsoever to be afraid of getting the most out of y'er Guzzi by having it perform at least as well as it was designed to perform on the road . . . . . Why not at least get something somewhere near the general neighborhood of the intended use out of those magnificently performing and expensive tires, for God's sake!!!!!!! None of what I've done to suspension is "modification", again - it's simply hemming the pant-legs! I've seen lots of knuckleheads walking around on their pantlegs because they're too long. Looks REALLY stupid to me, especially when they wear thru the backs and they get all frayed-out. . . . and I'll bet it's dangerous, too. . . . . at my son's High School, they make 'em cut them off with scissors. . . . . IMHO, anything less than a "good fit" of y'er chassis to y'er needs is just foolish and a waste of good (I didn't say perfect - but why not make the best of what we've got???) Guzzi engineering, but hey - that's just me. My gob-smacking incomprehension of the pervasive nature of the negligence mentality grows. . . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grossohc Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Gary, what percentage of the time do you carry all the gear? I don't carry anything more than a tank bag and "seat bag" and that's rare. This makes a tiny difference but because it's well-centered on the bike, it's not enough to be concerned about. Hi Ratchethack I would only be carrying any camping gear 2 maybe 3 times a year and that would be a tank bag and ventura bag taking up the back seat, so when i see this ohlins tech, should i just add 5 kilos extra to my weight!!! Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Gents! I've learned from long experience here that repetition sometimes serves to "get the word out". . . With that in mind, and begging y'er indulgence, may I throw out a few ideas for consideration? Thanks. 1. Re-springing a Guzzi - both front and rear - is not difficult. The hardest part is re-springing the rear shock, and any local shop can do it for you if you can't. If you can get the front wheel off the ground, you can re-spring the forks in less than 10 minutes. Anyone handy with tools can do most of it - both front & rear - very effectively and correctly set the sags by consulting a number of good guides that are readily available many places, including here on this Forum. 2. The cost of a set of springs - both front and rear - is somewhere slightly more than $200 USD. 3. I know people with large vehicles who spend more than this on a tank of gas on a regular basis. Depending on how far off you were to begin with (I was WAY far off with stock springs), when you get it set-up correctly, it transforms the Guzzi in the most pleasant way - I don't care how you ride or where you ride! Riding becomes far more relaxing and enjoyable - not to mention safer and more precise!!! In the case of my Guzzi, (as well as with my dual-sport thumper and many previous bikes) getting it right made me want to ride lots more than before. BAA, TJM, & YMMV Priorities, Gentlemen. . . . . Hi Ratchethack I would only be carrying any camping gear 2 maybe 3 times a year and that would be a tank bag and ventura bag taking up the back seat, so when i see this ohlins tech, should i just add 5 kilos extra to my weight!!! Gary Gary, this is just me. Y'er cargo carrying requirements are nearly identical to mine. I would select springs & sags for your riding weight - with no cargo - and ride with as much enjoyment and confidence as anyone's capable of on a Guzzi! IMHO, that's saying something!! BAA, TJM & YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Hey Hubert, Are these the Marz forks from OYB? Hi, you guess it, this they are and I'm still glad I had the luck to get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Just checked the suspension on my KR. Built in is a Tenni version of the same cheap marzocchi fork, the rear is WP supported. I found: front: static, empty 15mm, with my 86kg 30mm sag. Recomended 36 to 42. rear: static, empty 20mm, with my 86kg 55mm sag. Recomended also 36 to 42. The Front should be fine...I would cut the spacer 5-10mm The Rear you could add 15mm of preload and be much better off. A stiffer shock spring would help but I would say is not a dire requirement at your weight for the WP shock which I believe came with a 475lb spring. PS what is OYB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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