ECU Vs PCIII

[Guzzirider]

Spot on David- my request was for Mark to optimise the mid range.

[dlaing]

So, I am slowly marching forward.

I received my Innovation LM-1 with RPM kit yesterday, but I think I'll be lucky to get it installed within a month...

As a recap, I have been remedying my pinging by adding fuel. (and a little retarding of the ignition)

But I found this interesting article from

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/news4.php :

So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?

 

If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.

 

So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.

 

Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.

 

Optimum mix with “later” ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here’s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.

 

This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power.

 

Until next time... Keep On Tuning!

 

-Innovate Motorsports

It provides me a little more clarity on the relationship of timing and mixture.

So, now I have more faith to back the timing off a bit.

When I went on the tuning link dyno, they may have actually gotten the mixture "right" where it was pinging by leaning it out. Assuming they got it more or less correct, I do not need to add fuel there, I just need to retard the ignition to add both power and efficiency. Just adding fuel has been inefficient, polluting, carbon building, and power robbing.

The wideband controller should help me determine what is optimal.

But I will have to learn how much timing messes up the accuracy of the wideband readings. Generally I assume more advance will make it read leaner....which is why multi-gas analysis would be more ideal.

[DeBenGuzzi]

it didn't take long for me to go.

[dlaing]

it didn't take long for me to go.

76165[/snapback]

No comprende, señor.

...to go pee??????

...to go ping??????

....to go gah-gah??????

......to go, my gawd, what am I reading!?????????

 

Sorry if I posted my last post in the wrong thread.

I figured it made sense because of the direct ECU tuning's advantage of timing adjustability.

I am not sure Doug Lofgren would optimize both timing and fueling for only $500, but hey, you never know.

[DeBenGuzzi]

I just want it to run like a top I need a custom map and some fuel wrap. then I can worry more about cosmetic like I should be.

[dlaing]

My personal bias it to go with Doug tuning the ECU rather than the PCIII and I have bent over backwards to keep my bias out of your decision.

But I believe that without bias, given your current symptoms, it is best to go with Doug.

Be sure to tell him all about your symptoms and how you did a complete tune-up that has not fixed it.

He may additionally have to check your sensors, etc.

With his software, that may be trivial.

Note the above image may or may not represent the capabilities of his software.

[DeBenGuzzi]

My personal bias it to go with Doug tuning the ECU rather than the PCIII and I have bent over backwards to keep my bias out of your decision.

But I believe that without bias, given your current symptoms, it is best to go with Doug.

Be sure to tell him all about your symptoms and how you did a complete tune-up that has not fixed it.

He may additionally have to check your sensors, etc.

With his software, that may be trivial.

Note the above image may or may not represent the capabilities of his software.

76285[/snapback]

I think you make a good point, and if I change anything it will only be the cans and only to Ti might not effect the map enough to notice. Then I'll sell the PCIII for someone who wants to tinker more on thier own its plenty good for that.

[Guest trispeed]

looks like the best power is with keeping the bike stock? That's what most of the dyno charts seem to indicate. We could all save a lot of time and money by just riding our bikes instead of endless fiddling resulting in less power anyway.

My bike is completely stock and it runs great; I don't get the motivation to mess with the set up.

[gh67]

We could all save a lot of time and money by just riding our bikes instead of endless fiddling resulting in less power anyway.

76412[/snapback]

hear hear! Although you have to have some hi-flow loud exhaust to part the cager waters when the 405 is dead-stop. haha!

[DeBenGuzzi]

hear hear!   Although you have to have some hi-flow loud exhaust to part the cager waters when the 405 is dead-stop.  haha!

76413[/snapback]

yeah basically if I could do it all again I would just get some alum mistrals and call it a day but I'm a constant tinker-er. I'm cursed.

[dlaing]

looks like the best power is with keeping the bike stock? That's what most of the dyno charts seem to indicate.

76412[/snapback]

I think they indicate you do get small gains from most aftermarket modifications.

Louder, freeer mufflers are a bit of a trade off, but increase peak power.

Crossovers give more mid-range power if you don't already have the front balance pipe that was added in 2003 and 2004.

Eliminating the airbox lid adds a little power.

Porting adds a little power

High Compression pistons add a little power.

Re-mapping adds more power, but more importantly driveability and a potentially longer lasting engine.

Add just one or two things and youre quarter mile time will drop a fraction of a second and maybe the noise will make you think your bike is even quicker.

Add all these things and you will have a significantly more exhillarating bike.

Is it worth the trouble?

I think we each have our own opinion on that.

[gh67]

yeah basically if I could do it all again I would just get some alum mistrals and call it a day but I'm a constant tinker-er. I'm cursed. 

76416[/snapback]

Don't worry I'm cursed with the "disease" as well...I always have to have a project to keep me sane. although my bike is no where near stock....I definitely agree with trispeed's outlook on life of getting them out of the garage and on the road.

[Guest MTN]

Go for it !!!!

 

It really pays to tune your V11 Sport. With simple intake-exhaust modifications you can get BIG performance improvements. Important thing is to get information from someone who knows what he`s doing.

 

Here is one tuned V11 sport with intake-exhaust changes and Powercommander.

(the horsepower reading is crankshaft din)

[dlaing]

Go for it !!!!

 

It really pays to tune your V11 Sport. With simple intake-exhaust modifications you can get BIG performance improvements. Important thing is to get information from someone who knows what he`s doing.

 

Here is one tuned V11 sport with intake-exhaust changes and Powercommander.

(the horsepower reading is crankshaft din)

77771[/snapback]

Do you know what the exact changes are?

So we could know what we are doing.

If you read through the forum almost nobody is getting anywhere near that type of power.

FBF modified a bike to get just over 90HP and John T. got just over 90HP, but they did it with porting and other modifications.

The only ones getting more power are maybe dynotec, raceco, and maybe firestarter, but all for many thousands of dollars.

[moto]

If you read through the forum almost nobody is getting anywhere near that type of power.

77783[/snapback]

Note the "crankshaft din" business. The engine was tested on an engine dyno (rather than a chassis dyno) or a dyno that measures the driveline losses, or some silly arbitrary "correction factor" was applied.

 

Regards,

 

Derek