Guest teros1 Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 I ride my '03 Rosso pretty aggressively in Northern California's canyons (and freeways). I've been having a tough time getting the bike's Ohlins suspension sorted. (FYI, I weigh 200 pounds.) The fork is now working pretty well, but all settings are max'ed out (and I could still use a bit more rebound damping). The shock is a puzzle. I now believe that its high-speed compression damping circuit is simply to restrictive -- abrupt bumps at high speed are jarring. The only other thing that I can think of is the opposite, that the thing is bottoming -- but it doesn't feel that way. (I haven't tried the zip-tie test yet.) Anybody have any experience that might help? If I can't figure it out, it will be off to Jim Lindeman! Thanks, Bob Santa Clara, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX REDNECK (R.I.P.) Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Yes your a lard ass like me, and your going to have your suspension reworked. These bikes come set up for these puny little european riders,ever try a jap sport bike they are even worse for us fat guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Teros1, I have 02 Scura w/Ohlins suspension - I think the same as yours? From the shop it was awful - flopped into corners then pushed the front mid corner & ran wide on the exit. It wallowed & stood up in dips and stood up really bad on braking into corners. I come from long time on older Guzzis with little or no suspension adjustment, in fact, little or no suspension - so I know nothing much about set up. But I have played around with the Scura. At first I upped the damping which stiffened it all up but made it very harsh. Then I discovered preload! I upped the preload and eased off the damping. Forks Max preload with comp 12 off hard, rebound 7 off hard - Shock +5 turns preload, comp & rebound 9 off hard - is as good as I 've got it so far, but still need to fiddsle with the damping a bit more. I'm learning! The Ohlins stuff really is special, the range, subtlety & effectiveness of the adjustment is great. Still a handful on brakes, still pushes wide in mid/fast sweepers - but not so bad. I feel I can't get enough weight over the front wheel. The tank stops you shifting up over the front. I'm going to try dropping the triple clamps on the forks - it looks like about 1/2" is max cos of machining on the outer bodies of the forks. Has anyone done this? Will take something off the sidestand bumpstop! I run the steering damper on minimum no problems. May try rearsets. Pos different tank? Oh no! I weigh about the same as you. Are most other bikes that this Ohlins stuff goes on much lighter than Guzzis? Do the forks need stiffer springs, a preload spacer? I note that the back tyre goes to the edge of the tread but that there is still 1/2" untouched tread on the front. It hasn't been on the track. Bikes on 100/90 + 110/90's use both to the edge same time. Is the back overtyred? It doesn't make much more power than my 950 - is it just fashion? It certainly picks up road imperfections, white lines like I never noticed before on skinny tyres. Also, all the extra bracing around the s/a mount plates and reworked front engine mount tubes since the first V11's - was there a problem with frame flexing? It all looks a hasty fix. I know the V11 is a big, heavy, awkward bike compared to say a Jap sportsbike but... I'll be interested to see how you get on. KB in Wales PS. Anyone out there thinking of getting a Guzzi - This isn't a moan - I love the bike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sean Curry Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Dear Bob, I am very interested in the Rosso Corsa. I am trying to decide between this bike and a R1100S. Did you set your static sag? This is done with you on the bike. The theory is to use about 1/3 or so of suspension travel with the weight of the rider on the bike. Did this to 3 honda's and my zx11 with great results. You will need a helper. There are a lot of methods to adjust this. Do a google search " Static Sag" and you will find a bunch of how to's. Good luck, sean SUSPENSION SETUP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note! This material is taken from Öhlins "Racing Workshop" that comes with their excellent shocks. But don't hesitate to E-mail contact MW-RACING Introduction Unfortunatly there is no literature that can give you the perfect machine setup. Also suspension setup is individually dependent on the rider (style, preference) and track conditions which vary from race to race. We can therefor only try to give you guidelines and ground rules for the chassis setup of your machine. General guideline The general guideline in road racing is that the suspension has to support the tyres to create the best possible grip. For this reason suspension plays its most important role in corners, chicanes, aceleration and braking. In the straight line the suspension works satisfactory if it can absorb the bumps without causing instability. Suspension stroke A road race bike should normally not use its full suspension stroke, although on some curcuits one or two big bumps or hollows can cause the suspension to bottom. Also landing of front wheel after wheelies can cause excessive use of the front fork stroke. If suspension bottoms in big bumps or hollows, it should not automatically mean that the suspension should be set harder However, if suspension bottoms at the place where the maximum grip is essential, the tyre cannot creat the best traction because it also has to perform as a spring. Adjusting the settings is necessary. During every riding session, the suspension stroke should be carefully checked. When tire grip and lap times improve, the suspension has a harder job.So, settings must be set harder. On the opposite, when it starts raining, tyre grip and lap times go down. In that case a softer setting should be applied. Suspension setup Before you make any adjustments, please read your "OWNERS MANUAL"! Tip! You should do your changes in suspension setup one by one. Try to learn what effect each individual adjustment has on your bike and take notes! Static sag without rider How to do: Hold the bike upright on a flat surface. You shold independently lift front and rear until the suspension is fully extended. Approximate values should be: Machine type Front sag Rear sag Superbike 20-30 mm 5-10 mm Super Sport 20-30 mm 5-10 mm RR 250 15-25 mm 0-5 mm RR125 15-25 mm Just top out 0 mm An RR125 cannot afford to loose the momentum that the sag would give it in a straight line (loss of top speed) Adjustment: The static sag is adjusted by the spring preload. The procedure is the same for the fork and rear shock. Static sag with rider The accepted manner to adjust the spring ratio is to measure how much stroke is used with the rider sitting on the bike in a straight line position after you have set the correct static sag without rider. Nearly 1/3 of the full stroke is a good starting point for all machines. Note: This is the only guideline for the right spring ratio. The final check must be done on the curcuit. Rebound damping Rear Suspension Too much rebound damping can cause: The rear "jumps" on the bumps instead of following the surface. The rear "jutters" under braking. It holds the rear down with the result that the bike will understeer! It can cause overheating in the hydraulic system of the shock absorber and make it fade. in other words, it will loose damping when hot. Too little rebound damping can cause: The rear "tops out" too fast under braking, causing the rear wheel to jump. The bike feels unstabel. Front suspension Too much rebound damping can cause: Oversteering It will give poor grip of the front tyre. It feels like the front wheel will tuck under in corners. Too little rebound damping can cause: Understeering! The front can feel unstable. Compression damping Rear suspension Too much compression damping can cause: The rear wheel to slide under acceleration It gives a harsh ride over bumps Unstable rear under braking Too little compression damping can cause: The rear wheel start to bump sideways under acceleration out of the corner The bike will squat too much (rear is too low), that will cause the front to loose grip.(Understeering) Front suspension Too much compression damping can cause: Good result during brakingIt can give a harsh ride over bumps Too little compression damping can cause: Strong diving of the front Adjustment advice: Compression damping should be adjusted together with front fork oil level. Spring ratio Rear Too hard spring ratio: Gives easy turning into corners Makes the rear feel harsh Create poor rear wheel traction Too soft spring ratio: Gives good traction in acceleration Creates understeer in entry of corner Makes too much suspension travel which will make it difficult to "flick" the bike from one side to the other in a chicane Will give a light feeling in the front Front suspension Too hard spring ratio: Good result during braking Creates understeer It feels harsh in the corners Too soft spring ratio: Gives easy turning into corners Creates oversteer Can cause front to tuck under Bad under braking (diving) Front fork oil level First see the manual. The modern front fork of cartridge type is very sensitive for oil level changes, because of the small air volume. Air inside the front fork works as a spring The different level of oil effects the spring ratio from the middle of the stroke and has a very strong effect at the end of the stroke. When the oil level is raised: The air spring in the later half stage of travel is stronger, and thus the front fork harder. When the oil level is lowered: The air spring in the later half stage of travel is lessened, and thus the front forks are softer. The oil level works most effectively at the end of the fork travel. Note! Adjust the oil level according to your manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest teros1 Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Great replies -- thanks! Since I do not have the proper spanner, I have not yet set the rear sag. I will do so ASAP, as this is definitely the foundation for good suspension tuning. I have set the front. I don't have the rear figured out yet, but my sense is that the forks would benefit from slightly stiffer springs and higher viscosity oil. BTW, I test-rode the R1100S and many others before buying the Rosso. IMO, handling of the Guzzi is superior to the BMW, the ergonomics are better, and the engine sounds much better. Beemer might be more reliable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Stewart Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Hey Bob, I agree with you on the Ohlins forks springs being a tad soft. I know the stock spring Ohlins puts in their forks are .85 kg. Whether or not Guzzi had them up the spring weight is anyones guess. I also weigh in at 200 lbs. and on a 500 lb. bike I would think the spring rate would have to be around 1.0 kg. My Aprilia has 1.0 springs stock and feels perfect for my weight. The rear shock is harsh over large bumps, while not as harsh as my 00 V11Sport, you would think there is still room for improvement. I have read test reports on the Scura and after having the rear Ohlin shock revalved, it was better but some harshness was still present. That may be just as good as it gets with the Guzzi rear suspension. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 ...I wonder how the Penske "equivalent" shock compares? Does anyone have one fitted, and perhaps had the chance to ride both an Ohlins and Penske on a V11 Sport/LeMans? I've been considering either the aftermarket Ohlins or Penske unit. The Penske is significantly less expensive, but folks like Lindeman think they are basically equivalent. The only thing I know one loses out on is the option to get a remote preload adjuster with the Penske. They don't fit their shocks with this feature. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Definatly do the static sags you are wasting you time fiddling with anything before you get them sorted. Good numbers to use for the road 30mm without rider and 45-50mm with rider. Rear numbers 10mm without and 40mm with. However simply adjusting the preloads to get these numebrs arn't the full story if you are a larger type person it will get to the stage where the spring is wound up so tight it has no travel lenght left and handles like crap. the springs free lenght (with wheels off the ground) should be between 5mm and 20mm on the front and between 10-20mm on the rear. These numbers have been lifter directly from the Ducati website I can explain how to get there but a direct link doesn't seem to work we have used them across a wide variety of machines with excellent results. Best thing to do with a dampings is set them in the middle and adjust from there. One thing we did find is with the european machine the adjustments do cover a large range and its easy to get lost fiddling with them and end up with a crap handling machine where as some of the japanese bikes you could adjust them all day long and would be lucky if it made a difference and the handling would still be crap. The rear on the Guzzi's will always be a little harsher than a comparable bike due to the lack of any linkage system athough direct action shocks have come a long way since they were first intorduced. After market springs usally go for $100 plus fitiing for fronts and $200 plus fitting for rears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Stewart Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Al, I have a Penske on order from EMA (European Motocycle Accessories) in Livermore California, and like everything else it was only going to take 2 to 3 weeks to get and it looks more like 4 weeks. Talk to the guys at EMA they sell the Ohlins with the remote damper unit and remote spring preload adjuster for $775. and sprun to your weight and the Penske for $775 that is sprung and valved for your weight. Check out their web site, they have the cheapest prices on tires in town. Only $120. for a Sportec M1 180/70ZR/17, I should stock up now. No I don't make anything off the people I send their way, but I wonder if we can work on a group discount? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 So Mike, why did you choose the Penske over the Ohlins? ...which bike of yours is this shock for? Thanks for the source, and yes I would be very interested in a "group buy" al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Stewart Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Al, I went with the Penske because it is valved and sprung for my weight. Even with an Ohlins, there is no guarrentee that the valving will match your weight or riding style. I figured I would be money ahead by going with the Penske, the Ohlins may need the Le treatment for revalving to make it right, which could be another 2 to 3 hundred dollars depending if a spring is needed. So I ordered the Penske for my 00 V11 Sport, but who knows, if it is going to be in the shop for a while, the Penske may find its way on the 03 Rosso. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 http://www.ema-usa.com/ click here... Good find Mike! Glad to know that someone matched up the Ohlins to the V11....but the Penske may be the better deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 It's odd though, on the EMA website, they specify the Ohlins 46PRCS, where in the past I had cross-referenced and been told that the "H" series was the correct one. Note that on the "P" Seried, the reservoir is piggy-back, not remote like the OEM installation. So I would want to double-check on this if I were to order the Ohlins. hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest teros1 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Thanks again for all the great feedback. I run Penske 8987 on my F4i, and think that it's superior to the Ohlins in that it's built to spec and it has independent control of both low-speed and high-speed compression damping. This latter capability might be helpful in tuning the Guzzi "direct" suspension. I had an aftermarket Ohlins on my Speed Triple. While I liked the remote preload adjuster, I felt that it was a bit harsh. BTW, the Ohlins shock on the Rosso lacks both the hydrlic preload adjuster and ride height adjustment. Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I feel that the V11 (Scura w/Ohlins) would handle better and be more confidence inspiring in corners if you could physically get more weight over the front wheel, by shifting your body weight up. Starters, drop the triple clamps on the forks, anyone done this? Drop the bars? As this has the drawback of not involving large scale financial investment...perhaps rear sets might help, or new tank.... am I missing something here? KB,Wales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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