scura is sick :-(

[Guest jasper]

Hi..

 

Had the scura on the bench from HTM (www.htmoto.de) this weekend at the international moto guzzi meeting in Boxmeer, Holland just for the fun of it. After 2 seconds Hartmut (german guzzi guru) diagnosed worn valveguides at the right cilinder! not so good news! the engine has done about 15000 km's (roughly 10.000 miles) According to Hartmut all v11 engines suffer from this and it's caused by the materials used for the valveguides in combination with the angle of the tappet or something.. Anybody heard about this before or has an opinion about this ?

 

I don't think it is a problem yet as the bike doesn't use oil but it needs solving in the near future. So any ideas on improving this would be really appreciated

 

Ciao

 

jaP

 

PS: still had a nice weekend, had a look at the new Norge but i was lucky lotts of nice bikes to!

[Guest ratchethack]

Jasper, I've read enough about this on other forums to have a serious concern at triple your mileage. There seem to be two sources of premature wear in V-11 heads due to substandard materials: The guides and the valves. I've read where K-lining the guides and new valves can re-set the heads for 100K miles.

 

This summer, I'm doing a heads-off valve guide inspection at 30K miles and I'll be prepared to do a thorough top-end rebuild if necessary. I'm not using ANY measurable oil at this point, so it's hard to imagine you'd have much of a problem yet at 1/3 the miles?

[Guzzirider]

Hi..

 

Had the scura on the bench from HTM (www.htmoto.de) this weekend at the international moto guzzi meeting in Boxmeer, Holland just for the fun of it. After 2 seconds Hartmut (german guzzi guru) diagnosed worn valveguides at the right cilinder! not so good news! the engine has done about 15000 km's (roughly 10.000 miles) According to Hartmut all v11  engines suffer from this     and it's caused by the materials used for the valveguides in combination with the angle of the tappet or something.. Anybody heard about this before or has an opinion about this ?

 

I don't think it is a problem yet as the  bike doesn't use oil but it needs solving in the near future. So any ideas on improving this would be really appreciated

 

Ciao

 

jaP  

 

PS: still had a nice weekend, had a look at the new Norge     but i was lucky lotts of nice bikes to!   

92739[/snapback]

 

Boxmeer was brilliant! Shame I did not bump into you Jasper!

 

Guy

[Guest jasper]

  I'm not using ANY measurable oil at this point, so it's hard to imagine you'd have much of a problem yet at 1/3 the miles? 

92742[/snapback]

 

maybe a different riding style good cause faster wear? or is that not possible? I don't know i my book i should be using heaps of oil when the valveguides are worn.. right? so another question: what can go wrong with slightly worn valveguides?

 

When you say you are going to do a top end rebuild i assume you are going to use different components to the standard v11 ones since they don't really have a long lifespan! any ideas on which components to use?

 

Ciao

 

jap

[Guest jasper]

Boxmeer was brilliant! Shame I did not bump into you Jasper!

 

Guy 

92744[/snapback]

 

 

i was wearing my v11lemans.com t-shirt just in case! i only was there fridaynight so it was a bit short for me!

 

maybe next time?

 

Ciao

jap

[Guzzirider]

i was wearing my v11lemans.com t-shirt just in case! i only was there fridaynight so it was a bit short for me!

 

maybe next time?

 

Ciao

jap

92748[/snapback]

 

Yes I'll be back next year for sure.

[dbdicker]

i had thought this was a problem in the California model 1100 VTwins. Those valve guides were swapped as a precaution before delivery, from information from a couple of california variant (Stone, EV) owners I know.

 

Never heard of this problem as relates to spine frames. Boy, those guys in Europe ride their bikes HARD! Seems that motorcycles must be overbuilt to endure the 'at the redline' use they regularily take -- it's a wonder any bike can survive to 100K miles.

 

Did you flog the crap outta this one for 10K? Wheelie through France? What's going on over there??

[Guest ratchethack]

When you say you are going to do a top end rebuild i assume you are going to use different components to the standard v11 ones since they don't really have a long lifespan! any ideas on which components to use?

Yep! I sure wouldn't use Guzzi valves.

 

New valves with K-lined guides - and springs too if they're out o' spec.

 

I've started a "fishin' expedition" of my own looking for suggestions on valves!

[jrt]

Talk to Carl Allison. I think he had this problem.

[pete roper]

I've heard of, but never seen, severely worn guides on the V11's. Why it should happen i don't know. What I do know is that you can have horribly sloppy valves and guides and Guzzis won't tend to smoke. The best diagnosis technique I know is to have the engine stone cold, start it and run it for three or four minutes then kill it and let it sit until completely cold again. If the guides are suspect when you re-start it you'll then get huge clouds of smoke for a couple of minutes and then it'll clear and everything will appear *normal*. Years and yeard of dealing with the hateful big-valve motor taught me this .

 

The V11's use a slightly more aggressive cam than the big-valvers but their valves are smaller so the rocking motion imparted by the rocker sliding across the top of the valve is inherently less than with the big valver but the accelerative forces and side thrust will be greater due to the more aggresive nature of the cam.

 

From what I've read here and elsewhere it looks like Guzzi got a bung bunch of 'Free Grandfather Clock With Every Hundred' valves made and threw 'em willy-nilly into V11's. Certainly my understanding is that the problem rests with the valves rather than the guides, it's very difficult to f@ck-up a sintered bronze guide!

 

Getting some decent valves made by someone like Manley shouldn't be too difficult and as long as the valve guides are still firm in the head I say you can't go past K-lining. Not only does it keep the new valve concentric with the seat meaning that less material has to be removed to cut the new valves in but the scrolled nature of the liner means that they actually hold what little lubrication they get better than the parent material and so they last longer. A further bonus is that when they do wear out you simply ream 'em out and replace 'em again. All in all a much better sollution than re-guiding.

 

In case anybody want's to suggest that this might be an OK sollution for Lo-Po old sh!tters but not for a fine, race-tuned, (Snuffle, guffaw!) engine like the V11 I'd like to point out that both of the Moto Moda race bikes run K-lined guides and we're running considerably more aggressive cams than the V11 one and we've never had a failure. The K-lines in the 'Roundfin' bike have just been replaced after two and a half seasons which isn't a lot in miles but remember that this is a race bike that is caned to the max from cold virtually every time it's started!

 

Incidentally I'd like to know how the diagnosis was made that the guides were shot? The only *real* way to be sure is to take the heads to bits. If it was merely down on compression it could be any number of things and if it was leaking down I'd suspect a charred valve over worn guides at any mileage under 25,000KM???

 

Pete

[jrt]

Here we go- I knew I remembered an article on this from the past:

 

Thread #1

Thread #2

 

So, what's a K-lined guide?

[pete roper]

So, what's a K-lined guide?

92796[/snapback]

 

An interupted srolled liner that fits inside the original guide and is then reamed back to standard size.

 

Pete

[Guest jasper]

Did you flog the crap outta this one for 10K?  Wheelie through France?  What's going on over there??

92769[/snapback]

 

hmmm i ride it as it was intended.. you don't want to go and break the shaftdrive now would ya? No serious.... it did an occasional redline but not to bad and only when hot!

 

 

 

 

I've heard of, but never seen, severely worn guides on the V11's. Why it should happen i don't know. What I do know is that you can have horribly sloppy valves and guides and Guzzis won't tend to smoke. The best diagnosis technique I know is to have the engine stone cold, start it and run it for three or four minutes then kill it and let it sit until completely cold again. If the guides are suspect when you re-start it you'll then get  huge clouds of smoke for a couple of minutes and then it'll clear and everything will appear *normal*. Years and yeard of dealing with the hateful big-valve motor taught me this .

 

The V11's use a slightly more aggressive cam than the big-valvers but their valves are smaller so the rocking motion imparted by the rocker sliding across the top of the valve is  inherently less than with the big valver but the accelerative forces and side thrust will be greater due to the more aggresive nature of the cam.

 

From what I've read here and elsewhere it looks like Guzzi got a bung bunch of 'Free Grandfather Clock With Every Hundred' valves made and threw 'em willy-nilly into V11's. Certainly my understanding is that the problem rests with the valves rather than the guides, it's very difficult to f@ck-up a sintered bronze guide!

 

Getting some decent valves made by someone like Manley shouldn't be too difficult and as long as the valve guides are still firm in the head I say you can't go past K-lining. Not only does it keep the new valve concentric with the seat meaning that less material has to be removed to cut the new valves in but the scrolled nature of the liner means that they actually hold what little lubrication they get better than the parent material and so they last longer. A further bonus is that when they do wear out you simply ream 'em out and replace 'em again. All in all a much better sollution than re-guiding.

 

In case anybody want's to suggest that this might be an OK sollution for Lo-Po old sh!tters but not for a fine, race-tuned, (Snuffle, guffaw!) engine like the V11 I'd like to point out that both of the Moto Moda race bikes run K-lined guides and we're running considerably more aggressive cams than the V11 one and we've never had a failure. The K-lines in the 'Roundfin' bike have just been replaced after two and a half seasons which isn't a lot in miles but remember that this is a race bike that is caned to the max from cold virtually every time it's started!

 

Incidentally I'd like to know how the diagnosis was made that the guides were shot? The only *real* way to be sure is to take the heads to bits. If it was merely down on compression it could be any number of things and if it was leaking down I'd suspect a charred valve over worn guides at any mileage under 25,000KM???

 

Pete

92787[/snapback]

 

 

German Guzzi Guru concluded after hearing the enigine run for about 2 senconds that the valveguides on the right where toast..... no further checks!?!? he claims al the v11's have worn valveguides even at very low milage

 

but i am getting a feeling a second opinion is necessary here!

 

i do want to get it in perfect condition before shipping here of to her new homeland OZ

 

Any opinions on different, maybe progressive, springs?

 

I'll check the old threads now!

 

Ciao jasper

[Guest jasper]

http://www.cylinderheadshop.co.uk/K-line.html

 

this is what i found on the k-line stuff! looks promising!

 

ciao

 

jap

[TX REDNECK (R.I.P.)]

German Guzzi Guru concluded after hearing the enigine run for about 2 senconds that the valveguides on the right where toast..... no further checks!?!?

 

 

 

That's amazing.