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Installing a Roper Sloppage Sheet


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#1 Greg Field

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:27 AM

I put mine on at 0400 hrs Sunday morning, before my Sunday ride. For anyone who's interested, here's some words and pix on what's involved:

Preliminaries

1) Drain the oil. I did it the night before so more of the oil would drip off the parts I would be playing with. If you will be changing oil and filter, remove the filter, too. I had just changed oil two weeks prior, so I'm reusing the oil and filter.

2) Inspect the sloppage plate, and if necessary, debur it.

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Here's the plate. It's a very nice piece that's even inscribed with the name of Pete's company, so that when some archeologist unearths your V11 ten thousand years from now, they'll read the inscription and surmise that the Aussies ruled all the world in the year 2006.

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There were no real burrs on the one Pete sent me, but whatever cutting process used left a minor raised ring around the circumferences of some of the holes. The only holes on which this could possible matter are the ones for the oil journals. I used a flat file to gnaw them down. This shows it about halfway through the gnawing. Clean the plate thoroughly afterward.

3) Using a 19mm wrench, loosen and remove the three oil lines that enter the sump.

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4) Remove the screw that fastens the sidestand support to the upper sump, as shown in the fuzzy photo above. Loosen also the big bolt that holds the sidestand mount to the crankcase. I have a crashbar, so I had to loosen the big silver neut shown, which fastens on the crashbar.

5) Remove the lower sump by removing the screws that fasten it. If you lack an air ratchet, or (like me) can't stand the racket made by air tools early in the morning, let me introduce you to my little friend, the perfect tool for this job: Mr. Torq-It. He's great for taking out and replacing all those sump screws.

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6) Loosen the upper sump by removing the screws around its inner perimeter. Some of them are shown below, as is another of my little little friends: Mr. Hoseclamp. This one is best friends with Billy Bob's oil filter, but there's another Mr. Hoseclamp out there who wants to be your oil filter's friend, too.

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7) Loosen the four screws that hold fasten all the plumbing for the oil system (two are shown above). Support the oil filter and the rest of the guts as you are removing the last screw, so it doesn't tear free of its threads under weight of the upper sump.

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8) Set the upper sump carefully on a bench, supporting it if necessary to keep it from tiliting and spilling the oil out of you filter, as shown above.

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9) If the old gasket is torn, replace it, and then top it with the sloppage plate and add another gasket on top, as shown above. Those lobes of the gasket that extend toward the center are the most important part of the gasket and need to be in perfect shape because they seal the pressurized oil journals. Make sure they are in top shape. A leak from one of the journals will be internal, so you won't see it. A small leak won't be catastrophic, but a big leak will be. I do not use gasket goo for these gaskets. If you insist on using gasket goo around these journals, use it very sparingly (so you do not plug a journal) or use an anaerobic sealer so it will not harden in the journal if it gets in there. As the photo shows, the sloppage tray is a good fit and fills well all the space toward the back of the sump (right side of photo), so it should keep more oil near the pickup during drag-race starts.

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10) Time to install the upper sump and sloppage plate. It is vital that the gaskets that surround the oil journals stay in place during installation. One good way to ensure this is to slide one bolt into place at both front and rear journal blocks before lifting the assembly into place, as shown above. Lift it into place and start threading the two screws until they can support the assembly. Then, insert the other two screws and thread them in partway. It is best not to fasten them until you have started threading in all the perimeter screws. Go ahead and thread in these perimeter screws loosely, then tighten the oil-journal screws, and lastly tighten the perimeter screws.

11) If the lower sump gasket is torn, replace it, and then lift the lower sump into place and tighten its perimeter screws.

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12) Hook up the three ol lines and tighten them. The two at the front are often routed so tightly that they rub together and onto the alternator cover. As you can see above, mine were abrading each other and the alternator cover. Take this opportunity to separate them before you tighten the fittings, so they do not wer through.

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12) By adding the sloppage plate, you've lowered the upper sump by about 2.5mm, between the thickness of the plate and extra gasket. Because of this, you may need to relieve the lower perimeter of the hole in the sidestand mount. In my case, I had to remove about 0.5mm and did it with a Dremel and burr, as shown in the fuzzy photo above. Tighten both the screw into the sump and the bolt above it that fastens the sidestand mount to the engine block.

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13) The thin, silver "Roper Line" betwixt engine block and upper sump is the only external cue that that plate's in there. Check your work once-over, add engine oil, and go for a ride.

I added oil to halfway between full and add, as checked by the Guzzi method, meaning with the bike level and dipstick screwed all the way in (this is about where iit had been when I experienced oil starvation under acceleration before) and then rode it yesterday on a long ride two-up.Tonight I'll try some full-on launches while watching the oil-pressure gauge to see if the sloppage tray does its job.

Whatever the result, afterwards, I'm gonna add oil to the full mark as checked by the safer method of just inserting the dipstick to the top of the threads.

Thanks again, Pete!

#2 badmotogoozer

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:39 AM

Perfect! Thanks Greg - I'll refer to this when I get my p-plate!

I REALLY like Mr. Torq-It. He looks like a pullstart! Must be Wankel powered...

Rj

#3 Alex-Corsa

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 01:31 AM

Excuse me, :stupid: But can someone explain the how and why this uni-construction help the Guzzi from oil starvation under hard acceleration? have checked the other thread about the S.sheet , but my question couldn't be answered.
Anyways , just a couple of words of how it is working towards positiv oil distribution inside the motor will give me a clue.

TIA :bier:

#4 Rusty Bucket

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 01:50 AM

Thanks for the pics/write-up. I am grateful you have a V11; I had just put my sump back on when I saw your earlier posts on filter 'insurance'. Your logic appeals; I went down to the shop and pulled it back off again and banded the filter. Here's hoping the baffle-plate succeeds in maintaining your pressure even at the lower oil level, surely everyone would be happy with that result, not least of all you.

#5 Guest_ratchethack_*

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 02:11 AM

Excellent write-up, Greg. Thanks for clarifying concerns over the sidestand mount. :luigi:

#6 Greg Field

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 02:16 AM

Alex:

First, no one has mounted a camera in the sump while accelerating hard, so what follows is an explanation of what we think is happening:

When the motorcycle is at rest, the oil level is below the plate, at essentially the same level at both the front and rear of the sump. If you accelerate very briskly, the oil splashes toward the back of the sump. As it splashes back, the oil level gets higher at the rear and lower at the front. If it splashes back violently enough, the oil level toward the front of the sump gets low enough that the oil pickup is exposed, and the pump draws in air instead of oil.

The sloppage plate serves as a cover over the oil, which we hope will keep the oil level from rising too high at the rear of the sump and thus too low at the front. The oil level is something like 10-20mm below the plate when the motorcycle is at rest. When you accelerate and the oil tries to splash back, it will rise at the rear of the sump to the level of the plate, at which time the plate will force most of it (some will leak through holes in the plate) to stay below the level of the plate. We hope that by constraining the oil thusly that enough oil will remain around the pickup to keep the oil pump from sucking air.

I'll be back later with one data point on whether it worked or not. (My rod bearings are hoping for a positive result.)

Rusty:

Good on ya!

#7 Ryland3210

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:09 AM

I'm having trouble seeing how the oil will be prevented from seeking the same level as before under hard acceleration, because of the presence of the large rectangular hole which is towards the rear of the sump, as I understand it. I can't imagine it will take more than a second for the oil to flow through that hole. Does anyone have any data on rates of acceleration, or something like 0 to 60 times? With that information, the angle of the oil surface at the maximum rate of acceleration could be calculated and some estimate made of at what point the theoretical oil surface falls below the pickup.

Having said that, if nothing else, the sloppage plate should reduce the tendency for sloshing back and forth under jerk conditions. ("jerk" as in the scientific term, not as a commentary on the character of any of my fine colleagues!)

Of course, a super wheelie over a long enough distance would probably starve the pickup for oil no matter what type of sloppage plate were installed, short of fully sealing the sump with some creative method of getting drain oil back into it. That's an argument for dry sump lubrication. I never worried about it with my Norton.

I'm looking forward to reading the results of the test.

#8 Dr Gil

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 04:33 AM

OK, and here's where the problems start.

I've just recently gone through this with Moto International. I order V11 sump gaskets and I get this weird, small stuff (same bolt pattern) with extra-bits attached. Please remember that I'm still new to all this...apparently so is the guy at MI (btw, if anyone needs a couple of these weird gaskets I have some...willing to pass along for mailing costs).

MY V11 uses a much larger (without the "extra bits" gasket) and now I'm wondering if the "Roper Slump Pump" will fit MY bike.

What gives with these different configurations? Am I doomed to have "oil sloppage" because I am some dinosaur, some failed Guzzi experiment that has gone wrong? Has my time on earth been foreshortened? AM I DARWINIAN?

Oh woe is me?

#9 guzzijack

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 10:28 AM

OK, and here's where the problems start.

I've just recently gone through this with Moto International. I order V11 sump gaskets and I get this weird, small stuff (same bolt pattern) with extra-bits attached. Please remember that I'm still new to all this...apparently so is the guy at MI (btw, if anyone needs a couple of these weird gaskets I have some...willing to pass along for mailing costs).

MY V11 uses a much larger (without the "extra bits" gasket) and now I'm wondering if the "Roper Slump Pump" will fit MY bike.

What gives with these different configurations? Am I doomed to have "oil sloppage" because I am some dinosaur, some failed Guzzi experiment that has gone wrong? Has my time on earth been foreshortened? AM I DARWINIAN?

Oh woe is me?


Sounds as if you have the correct sump gaskets for installation of the sloppage sheet to me. Those being the upper ones where the sump extension attaches to the engine block. Don't forget that the lower gasket - the one you usually see when you drop the sump to change the oil filter (if you don't use the manhole cover) is a larger gasket - hence the term 'Broad Sump' for V11Sports, Daytonas and Centauros - without the extra bits for the oil galleries.

Have a close look at Greg's pictures on Sloppage Sheet Installation and it should become clear.

Other than that could it be you've ended up with something weird, like for a V65, V50 or similar?

Graham

#10 Zoom Zoom

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 10:54 AM

OK, and here's where the problems start.

I've just recently gone through this with Moto International. I order V11 sump gaskets and I get this weird, small stuff (same bolt pattern) with extra-bits attached. Please remember that I'm still new to all this...apparently so is the guy at MI (btw, if anyone needs a couple of these weird gaskets I have some...willing to pass along for mailing costs).

MY V11 uses a much larger (without the "extra bits" gasket) and now I'm wondering if the "Roper Slump Pump" will fit MY bike.

What gives with these different configurations? Am I doomed to have "oil sloppage" because I am some dinosaur, some failed Guzzi experiment that has gone wrong? Has my time on earth been foreshortened? AM I DARWINIAN?

Oh woe is me?


I assume you mean "extra bits" as defining the two spots that extend inward. That gasket looks to be the same one that adorns the regular big block Guzzi engines. As such, there will be two bolts per extra bit that needs to be removed along with the bolts around the edges. The other holes in the extra bits are oil passages. Should be 14 around the edges, (inside the sump), and the four I just mentioned. 18 in all. As already mentioned, after you remove the first piece of the sump, (the bottom piece, if you will), you need to remove the "next section", which uses that gasket between the block and it. The larger gasket fits between the extention and the bottom. In actuality, you could in theory, eliminate the bottom stuff all together, which would include the oil cooler, and use a sump off a regular big block Guzzi. Of course that makes the sidestand unuseable, but you could lean the bike against a tree everywhere you stop. :grin:

Zoom Zoom,
John Henry

#11 luhbo

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 11:24 AM

Does anybody know what amount of oil per minute is shoved above this plate at let's say 6000 RPM or higher?

#12 mike wilson

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 11:51 AM

Other than that could it be you've ended up with something weird, like for a V65, V50 or similar?

Graham


That sounds most likely. Small block sump gaskets look, er, broadly similar to big block ones but have a circular pit where the oil filter goes and an oil gallery hole.

You can change the oil filter on small blocks without dropping the sump. Ahem. Look here:
http://www.isdal.dk/...case_covers.htm you can see the filter cavity at the back of the sump - the gasket goes around there. On the left hand side (this is all as you are looking at the diagram) there is an oil gallery that the gasket goes around, too.

Look familiar, Gil?

m

Excuse me, :stupid: But can someone explain the how and why this uni-construction help the Guzzi from oil starvation under hard acceleration? have checked the other thread about the S.sheet , but my question couldn't be answered.
Anyways , just a couple of words of how it is working towards positiv oil distribution inside the motor will give me a clue.


It will_slow_ the movement of oil to the back of the machine (and away from the oil pickup) under acceleration by lowering the height to which it can easily climb. For all practical purposes, it seems that this is sufficient to reduce the incidence of oil pressure drop to a level that is acceptable.

#13 Alex-Corsa

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 11:52 AM

Alex:

The sloppage plate serves as a cover over the oil, which we hope will keep the oil level from rising too high at the rear of the sump and thus too low at the front. The oil level is something like 10-20mm below the plate when the motorcycle is at rest. When you accelerate and the oil tries to splash back, it will rise at the rear of the sump to the level of the plate, at which time the plate will force most of it (some will leak through holes in the plate) to stay below the level of the plate. We hope that by constraining the oil thusly that enough oil will remain around the pickup to keep the oil pump from sucking air.

I'll be back later with one data point on whether it worked or not. (My rod bearings are hoping for a positive result.)

Rusty:

Good on ya!



Thanks , OK now I got it.

#14 guzzijack

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:01 PM

Does anybody know what amount of oil per minute is shoved above this plate at let's say 6000 RPM or higher?


I'm reliably informed by our (very small) man on the spot that it is between 16.97 and 24.65 but increases rapidly to a high point of around 39.22 at maximum revs. As a comparison, at idle it should measure 11.39.

Hope that answers the question - what was it :huh2:

I'm sure nobody - including Pete - has an answer to this and why would they? The whole point of the plate/sheet is to keep the bulk of the oil in the sump from slopping around. Normal operating requirements of the engine in terms of oil feed from the pump etc would be unaltered.

Graham (In jest)

#15 pete roper

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 12:05 PM

I'm having trouble seeing how the oil will be prevented from seeking the same level as before under hard acceleration, because of the presence of the large rectangular hole which is towards the rear of the sump, as I understand it. I can't imagine it will take more than a second for the oil to flow through that hole. Does anyone have any data on rates of acceleration, or something like 0 to 60 times? With that information, the angle of the oil surface at the maximum rate of acceleration could be calculated and some estimate made of at what point the theoretical oil surface falls below the pickup.


The plate won't prevent the oil fromsurging backwards completely. The rectangular hole has to be there as the oil pressure relief valve sits proud of the top of the spacer where the plate fits. Also there has to be some space for the oil to return to the sump while the engine is running. Although most of the oil seems to end up in the front left hand corner, (Why I'm not sure, centrifugal/cyclonic forces would seem the obvious answer.) I felt that it was going to be necessary to have other *holes* as well in different parts of the plate, hence the larger than strictly necessay OPRV hole and the fact that the right hand edge of the hole through which the 'Filter Mount and Thermostat Munt' sticks is straight rather than being contoured to fit more closely around the fitting.

Remember, the oil starvation only seems to be a problem under really fierce acceleration in the lower gears. The plate doesn't have to completely prevent the rearward slop of the oil, it only has to slow it doen and inhibit it enough to ensure that the pick-up isn't exposed.

As I mentioned in the earlier thread the IDEAL solution would be to dry-sump the motor but that would require a scavenge pump and a whole lot more weight and complexity. With the plate I'm not looking for a *perfect* or *Ideal* solution. What I'm hoping I've achieved is a simple solution to the pick-up exposure problem to prevent bearing damage.

As I also stated earlier IMHO the CORRECT level for the oil should be just below the plate which coresponds to the bottom of the block. When the plate is installed it is worth marking the dipstick at that point. While by doing this you will be adding a bit more oil and therefore will slightly increase the crankcase pressurisation the plate will help prevent oil expulsion by reducing windage so it is unlikely that the breather system would be over-taxed by the extra oil volume. Since many people have already started running their 'Broad Sump' Engines over-full to combat the loss of pressure problems I can't see this over-pressure causing any sealing problems.

Pete




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