Clutch Swap Time....Advice please?

[Ballacraine]

Well, I now have a V10 Centauro twin plate clutch assembly complete with correct (ie different one than a Scura ) transmission input dog / spline.

 

Made a semi-serious attempt to get the whole plot set up, but have pretty much fallen at the first hurdle.

 

What equipment is best for attacking this job?

 

I tried the old Harley Duo Lift ( parallelogram scaffolding ) under the sump, but as the point of balance is half way off the sump, it looks far to precarious to leave like that, let alone work on.

 

Most paddock stands are going to be out, I suppose, because I take it the swinging arm will have to come out before I get to the quarry?

 

I have a hoist somewhere, but I doubt the flat roof of my garage would stand it.

 

So I thought I would ask you good people who have been there, for the best plan of attack?

 

Many thanks in anticipation of any input.......'cos I is stumped.

I haven't busted anything yet and would like to avoid doing so

 

Cheers, folks!

 

Nige.

[DeBenGuzzi]

dissasemble?

[Paul Minnaert]

there are ( at least) 2 ways to do it.

 

1. leave the engine mounted in the frame and take the gearbox away.

problem with the >2001 bikes is a bit the subframe between gearbox and swingarm.

 

2. leave the gearbox and take the engine to the front.

 

For only the clutch this one is easy I think, look at the picture here. The engine can be taken away in this position, As you see the engine is on a wood piece on wheels that has the right height.

 

If you ask your dealer for 2 special tools: the one that locks the clutch, and the tool to block the gearbox spline, then you don't have to take it out no more than this. Else in the position like on the picture, you can take the engine sideways out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ballacraine]

Excellent info, Paul.

 

Thank you very much for that.

 

Ben.....

 

Thanks for the laugh!

 

Nige.

[pete roper]

OK, since nobody else is biting I'll take a stab.

 

Firstly I've got to ask whether it will work because the clutch pushrod might be the wrong length. The Scurras used a single plate clutch ex-factory and this *may* mean that a different length pushrod is used. I'd check part numbers becaue the last thing you want is to get it all back together and then find the pushrod is either too long or too short for it to operate the clutch correctly. A pushrod from one of the V11's witgh the twin plate ex-factory would work but one from a Centauro or any of the five speeds won't as the V11 gearbox is much shorter than the old five speeder.

 

OK, that being said there are two schools of thought on tackling the clutch on spineframes. Carl will probably be able to offer his advice too and he's done more of 'em than me probably.

 

The first way is to disconnect all the crap from around the front of the engine, remove the inlet manifolds and exhaust etc. Thn remove the front sub frames and undo the bell housing nuts and pull the motor forward off the transmission. I have to say that this method seemingly has a lot of advantages because it doesn't require disturbing the swingarm, final drive etc. The biggest problem I can see is that I'd think it would be an absolute frontbottom to get it all lined up and back on again. I have never done it this way but that's because I'm an old school traditionalist who's been working on Tonti's and Loops for years so the way i do it is more closely akin to the old Tonti method of gearbox removal which is.....

 

Support the motor on it's sump. For this purpose I've got a special *stand* which is essentially a plywood box with two wooden *Rails* running fore and aft in line with the bike's wheelbase. I get a pair of burly oafs to help me lift the bike up and plonk it down on the rails ith the slight 'V' of the broad sump in between the *rails*. I then lash the front of the bike down to the workbench with tie downs to prevent it toppling backwards due to the fairly heavy rearward weight bias.

 

Disconnect the battery!

 

Once it's secure it's time to remove the rear wheel, driveshaft and everything rearwards of the gearbox along with the exhausts, airbox etc. but the TB's etc. can be left in place. Once the driveshaft is off it can also be easily and very effectively greased, much easier than doing it on the bike but remember when it goes back on it is VITAL that the trunnions are aligned proerly or you WILL bust expensive bits!!!!!

 

Remove the pork chops and loosen the bolts that locate the front sub frames to the timing chest. Remove the bolt that goes through that plate-like casting that's bolted to the top of the gearbox, disconnect the speedo cable etc. and make sure that nothing is still connected that is going to get stretched. Remove the starter motor at some point during all this!

 

When everything is loose or disconnected and the two uppermost bolts in the bell housing have been removed you should be able to pivot the spineframe and it's still connected rear sub-frame *up* on the two front sub-frame bolts until the whole sorry lot is sufficiently high that you can stick a block of wood between the frame and a rocker cover to hold it in place. You can then undo the rest of the bell housing nuts or bolts and pull the gearbox off the back of the motor. With the V11's with their hydraulic clutches I imagine that before you 'Crab' the frame in this way you'd have to remove the slave cylinder fro the back of the box, I haven't actually had the box off a V11 yet!

 

Once the box is off you have free access to the clutch/flywheel and the fragmentary Scurra single plater can be removed and flung into the nearest paddock and whatever you are sticking in in it's place installed. Before yoy remove the old flywheel use the timing marks to set the engine up at TDC on one side. That makes it very easy to ensure that when you put the new flywheel on it will have it's timing marks in the same, correct, places.

 

If you're going with the Centauro 10 spring twin plater it is VITAL that you use a clutch aligning tool of some sort to compress the springs fully before inserting the pressure and intermediate plates. If you don't and try to just align them by eye and then tighten down the ring-gear bolts and hope that it will all slide into place I can almost guarantee that you'll bend the intermediate plate and a.) the clutch will drag when the bike is back together and b.) you'll have to do the whole job all over again! It simply isn't worth it! and it'll cost you $60, (25 quid!) for a new intermediate plate.

 

Once the clutch is assembled with the ring gear on DON'T whatever you do forget to put the thrust cup into the centre of the pressre plate before re-install ing the gearbox on the engine. You'll feel like a right dolt when you've got eveything back to gether and grab the clutch and there's no resistance at th lever. A few moments looking will reveal the thrust cup sitting somewhere *safe* on the bench This usually results in weeping and a large increase in beer intake .

 

Reassembley is a reverse of the disassembley. As I say, this is only the way I tackle spineys, I'm not saying it's the best way or even the easiest way. It's simply the way I do it because its the closest to what I'm *used* to with working on Guzzis of all sorts over the years.

 

I hope that helps? if you want to see pics of the clutch installation and required tools go to the Guzzitech dk sire and have a look at the last chapter of my engine strip and rebuild series. That clutch is only an 8 springer and the Centauro's flywheel and ring gear design is slightly different but the principles and parts are essentially the same so it's still a good indicator of how to do things.

 

Pete

[Paul Minnaert]

Ok the parts manual doen't give another number for the rosso mandello single plate clutch pushrod. So that's the same. what you will need is the small thing the pushrod presses against(retainer: 04082800). Because the v11 pushrod is a larger diameter. That is what the scura in my picture was waiting for. The one part that was forgotten to order.

[DeBenGuzzi]

there are ( at least) 2 ways to do it.

 

1. leave the engine mounted in the frame and take the gearbox away.

problem with the >2001 bikes is a bit the subframe between gearbox and swingarm.

 

2. leave the gearbox and take the engine to the front.

 

For only the clutch this one is easy I think, look at the picture here. The engine can be taken away in this position, As you see the engine is on a wood piece on wheels that has the right height.

 

If you ask your dealer for 2 special tools: the one that locks the clutch, and the tool to block the gearbox spline, then you don't have to take it out no more than this. Else in the position like on the picture, you can take the engine sideways out.

 

 

77405[/snapback]

This is all fine and dandy and well thought out, I just have ONE little question

who pulls thier motorcycle engines in thier living rooms on nice carpet, next to artwork? I mean these aren't tinker toys and I am highly impressed personally just checking to see if my fuel lines are all right gets goo and grime all over me.

[Paul Minnaert]

This is all fine and dandy and well thought out, I just have ONE little question

who pulls thier motorcycle engines in thier living rooms on nice carpet, next to artwork?

 

well you know I do that:-) On my website more evidence. But in this case the bike was put into pieces, in the shed, and waited there for 4 month, before mandello gave it a new engine and gearbox. Had something to do with a clutch...

[Ballacraine]

Wow...Thanks for your time and patience on that very detailed reply, Pete.

 

That is going to help a lot.

 

Paul.

 

Have I got the right items circled on this special tools schematic?

 

Don't want to order the wrong kit!

 

The V10 clutch assembly I purchased came with a pushrod cup and also the tranny input spline, which apparently differs in length to the one fitted on the Scura.

 

Am I going to need another pushrod cup or should the V10 or the Scura original be the correct item?

 

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Nige.

[Paul Minnaert]

Have I got the right items circled on this special tools schematic?

 

Don't want to order the wrong kit! 

 

The V10 clutch assembly I purchased came with a pushrod cup and also the tranny input spline, which apparently differs in length to the one fitted on the Scura.

 

Am I going to need another pushrod cup or should the V10 or the Scura original be the correct item?

Thanks for your help. 

 

Nige. 

77417[/snapback]

 

the first tool is, the second you don't need, you can use the one you have in your hand, the one that mounts on the gearbox. And to lock that, I suppose you need nr 8 in the picture.

To get the old one of, you can use a spanner, no problem when it's ruined.

 

Maybe your dealer will rent you the tools?

 

Fot the pushrod cup, the v10 one has a to small hole, and the scura one won't fit. It looks almost the same as the v10 one, only side to side will reveal the difference. So get a new one: retainer: 04082800

[macguzzi]

well you know I do that:-) On my website more evidence. But in this case the bike was put into pieces, in the shed, and waited there for 4 month, before mandello gave it a new engine and gearbox. Had something to do with a clutch...

77415[/snapback]

Paul you are worrying me what was the issue with your clutch, usual Scura problem of grenading clutch or what. Worried Scura owner. An aside to this I see we share a birthdate!

[pete roper]

the first tool is, the second you don't need, you can use the one you have in your hand, the one that mounts on the gearbox. And to lock that, I suppose you need nr 8 in the picture.

To get the old one of, you can use a spanner, no problem when it's ruined.

 

Maybe your dealer will rent you the tools?

 

 

77422[/snapback]

 

actually you don't really *need* the flywheel/ring gear locking tool either. If you get a bit of flat steel bar about 20-30cm long and drill an 8mm hole in either end you can hook it over one of the bell housing studs, remove one of the ring gear retaining bolts and replace it with a longer one going through the other hole in the bar. That will hold everything quite adequately to get both the rest of the ring gear bolts and the flywheel bolts undone.

 

as Paul sez, you use the *new* clutch hub with a washer over the end that goes into the gearbox and a long 12 x 1.25, (I think?) bolts with a nut on it as the compression mechanism.

 

Install the pressure plate and springs as shown in the engine rebuild article. Then place the clutch hub over the centre of the pressure plate. Wind the nut all the way up to the head of the long bolt and then slip the washer on after it. You can then screw the bolt into the threads in the back of the crank and then wind the nut down the bolt until the washer is sitting on the back of the clutch hub.

 

Lock the flywheel with your bit of flat steel bar again and the wind the nut down the bolt so that the springs are all compressed to coilbind.

 

Slip the first friction plate onto the hub, then install the intermediate plate, then the second friction plate. With both the friction plates the raised bits of th steel centres need to be towards the gearbox, not towards the engine.

 

Remove you locking tool and install the ring gear. Re-install the tool and then insert and tighten all the bolts bar the one holding the tool. When all the others are done remove the longer bolt that you've been hooking the tool on and install and tighten the last ring gear bolt, (You can brace the ring gear witha screwdriver on one of the bell housing bolts and stuck into the ring gear teeth for this last one.) The Centauro ring gear is retained by ten, short 6 mm bolts I believe? Use new schnoore washers under the allen heads of the bolts and a dab of blue loctite 243 just to be sure.

 

Once the ring gear is in place hold the bolt in the centre of the crank and unwind the compressor nut until the plates are seated on the face of the ring gear. The bolt can now be removed from the crank and the clutch hub removed from the centre of the plates and the new thrust cup inserted into the centre of the pressure plate.

 

When you remove the Clutch hub from the gearbox input shaft and install the new one it is wise to replace both the seal and the o-ring that lives between the hub and the front input shaft bearing. On five speeders the bearing is a sodding great angular Contact 3205 and I assume since the shaft size is the same the same bearing is used in the six speeders? If so examine tha cage of the bearing closely for cracking. The later type 3205's used in the five speeders are notorious for lunching thei cages. It's not a problem I've heard of with the six speeders but since you can see it it's worth checking.

 

Note that the hub is retained by a peculiar peg nut, (Unless the six speeders use a different retaining nut?). The Guzzi tools for this are absolute shite! Don't even bother thinking about buying one! Rolf Halvoorsen in Denmark makes a whole series of brilliant special tools for both the five speed and six speed boxes including all the weird peg nuts. They're worth their weight in gold! If you don't want to shell out for the whole set alone how about clubbing together with a few other folks and buying a *Community* set?

 

Pete

[Ballacraine]

Once again,

 

Thanks for the comprehensive information. It is much appreciated.

 

do you have any contact data for Rolf Halvoorsen, by any chance?

 

TIA

 

Nige.

[pete roper]

I think Rolf's contact details are linked in with the engine rebuild article? If not I'm almost certain they'll be on guzzitech dk. Gimme a bit of time and I'll dig 'em out.

 

Pete

[Baldini]