wavey_davey

I don't think Piaggio are clueless, I don't want one, but I'm not the target audience, probably none of us are... A drive through the lovely sunfilled cotswolds this afternoon and apart from a load of japanese sportsbikes, the only bike I saw more than one of was the Hinckley Bonnevilles, and I saw about 4 of 'em. Now I own a box stock '68 US spec bonneville and a stripped down '74 750 Bonneville, and I HATE the ersatz hinckley version, with it's bloated weight and ugly angles, but I'm in the minority Soo, Guzzi (Piaggio) can either tap into the retro market with a lovely big blocked snorting 1200 sport engined beauty , and it will cost more than the Ducati Sportclassics and sell even worse. Dunno about US, but in UK they can't give them away, possibly due to stupid riding position for intended 40 something market on the Sports, and slightly dowdy image of the GT? Very low mileage used ones are readily available around 5000 quid and still not selling. Using the 850 griso engine won't save much as frame etc would also need to be from similar source.. Or, they can utilise existing sound if timid Nevada/Breva 750 running gear, and minimal re-engineering costs, and turn out a viable bonnie alternative for the Newbie/re-born market who don't care if it's only 40 odd horsepower (the bonnies are 50 odd bhp but weigh 100lbs more, go figure), as long as it's competent and PRETTY! Twin shocks is actually an advantage in this sector! So who cares if it's a V7 sport derivative, if that's the best looking from the back catalogue, not the intended market sector that's for sure.. It already seems to be heading for a better write up from the (admittedly awful) MCN than the Bellagio (which they thought was dubiously styled) and the Stelvio (which they thought didn't compare to the class benchmark, the GS), so good on Guzzi! (assuming price IS near the Triumph,ahem)...

Belfast Guzzi, Here's the answer to your question on what lies in the upper rev ranges! After much googling, the ONLY dyno chart I could find was from Italian mag Euromoto, someone has scanned a dyno chart for the 8v Griso (Stelv will be lower/flatter torque hopefully, with ECU, exhaust and possibly cam changes)? I'm not sure on the actual figures, I assume "Rullo" is at rear wheel, and Perdite is the losses in the tranny, all std dyno stuff. But when (with more sad googling) I found an article the same mag had done on dyno testing (A Superflow, which I think tend to give slightly lower readings than more common Dynojet stuff)they used an Aprilia Tuono 1000R as an example, and the "Rullo" figure was only 105 bhp peak. Motorcyclist magazine got 114 out of one on the same kind of dyno? So possibly the "Albero" figure is the oft quoted one, dunno, I'm confused Anyway, here's the chart, showing (relative) mid range quiet spot, then it takes off like waaay more than any recent 2 valve. I plotted the Rullo figure against the recent "Bike" magazine test between 1200 sport and BM R1200R. The plot was pretty much between the two, so at NO point does the 8v make LESS power than the (admittedly slightly strangled) modern equivalent 1200 2v. So much for mid range flat spots, these things are all relative, with even decent brit journalists like Kevin Ash and Roland Brown saying they should have used the 2v in the Stelvio?? All this might be nonsense of course, and I've got the wrong figures, but shape of curve tells us a lot, much smaller dip in middle than modern 2v (as they leave the factory). Also suspect stelvio will sacrifice top end, for not much difference lower down, this seems to be the way with "softer" versions of modern engines (e.g. Caponord vs Tuono etc) Hope this is useful/interesting, test ride on Stel coming up, having sold the v11 recently. Oh and Todd, tried to put this on stelvio.com, but still struggling with registration, despiute your e-mail today? Dave

I agree Macguzzi (about the supermotard bit, not necessarily the "finish compared to Aprilia")! Popped into Corsa Italiana for a gawp and given that; a/ Just sold the V11 and b/ Turned up on my 1150gs Adventure they probably think I am the target customer! (and they'd be right, went to Milan show this year to see it.) Brian kindly wheeled it out and fired her up! Exhaust note definitely Guzz, with a whiney whistle over the top, presumably due to some straight cut gears in cam drive?? Sounds like a supercharger, and will hopefully die down over a few miles? General comments; Oddment space in tank of limited use, pretty small but 1 litre extra fuel probably more use? Found only one example of sub standard finish, the panel on right of tank was a tiny (and I mean tiny) bit ripply. Exhaust headers seems to have a sort of grainy (non stick pan) type finish, unlike smooth finished stainless on griso next to it, which might stop the infamous corrosion stains? Headlights will burn holes in trees Comfort seemed very good, seat height fine for most (about 1 inch lower than my 1150 on lowest setting) and feels very weildy despite size. Too much plastic (pannier mounts, rack, sump guard), price you pay for getting the weight down (about same as a 1200 sport I'd guess, so pretty good considering size of it) prob a bit heavier than 1200 BMW GS, but not by much. Styling, well nowhere near as pretty as the griso or V11, but then we all knew that , but loads of presence, especially when wheeled outside. Hardly any space under passenger seat, even with tiny standard tool kit. One belgian magazine that is supposed to be pretty hard to please rated it best guzzi ever, after 24 hours with it. Dealer launch this week, so hoping for details on panniers and ABS. Only issue (apart from subjective stuff like styling and whether you like this type of bike) imho seems to be price, getting very close to BMW money, if Guzz want to grow the market outside their existing niches and customer base.. Me? A test ride beckons, but suspect so does a new Guzz! Dave Sunny London

Well this black one is certainly sexy!! Yes, finally, after weeks of mindlessly clicking on the Moto link, and after the bikes have actually appeared in showrooms around the civilized world (and Leicestershire) Guzzi finally deign to put the Stelvio on their website, or at least the italian version http://www.motoguzzi.it/it_IT/default.aspx Click on Moto and, tellingly, it appears under "touring" (that should end those "would I take one across a gravel car park or wouldn't I" debates!) Get a load of these 2! Having just sold the v11, and still riding around on a B*W GS, you don't need to be Einstein to work out what I'm waiting for down at Colliers Wood!! Some other new images of the bog eyed beast in Rosso, Nero and Ice Cream Van.... (actually I love the moon white on the Griso in the flesh, but not so sure here) Enjoy! Dave p.s. Missing that damn green beast in the garage though..

I just did exactly that for the same reasons, NEC show last year was a joke, especially if you wanted to see something not viewable at your local Japanese bike dealer I flew into Bergamo (temptingly close to Mandello) and bus trip is one hour (they are very geared up for this) into Milan and about 4 quid each way. Short trip on tube (helps if lady at tourist info doesn't give you wrong station to get off at!) aqnd cheaper to get into than NEC for a show that's, ooh, at least twice as big, possibly three times?? The range of stunning new models on display is mind boggling, and some of the bikes were nice too! Food disappointing though, only a notch above NEC Which probably explains why enjoying a pizza near Milan Cathedral afterwards meant we missed our flight, oops.. Overall recommended, but factor in carparking at airport , milan tube fares etc etc, and prob twice price (but more than twice as good!) Dave

My 2 pence worth, having just got back from EICMA.. Stelvio is a lovely piece of work, but only if you like big trailies/adventure sports/call em what you will. Saying it is an ugly pos if you think all such bikes are that, is not really saying much in terms of it's relative qualities? WAY better looking imho than the newly restyled GS (which is not saying much I admit!) the Tiger (not saying much either, ahem) or Multisrada (you get the picture). According to italian single page brochure it will be out in January, and I can believe it. It looked totally production ready close up, no wooden mock-ups here, and the small accesory shop on the stand had cute little fog/driving lights already for it and handguards (and a stelvio wristwatch Only bits I didn't like was injection moulded rack (but must help on weight - see later) and the pipe (which isn't that bad). No sign of allegedly standard panniers (I suspect plastic square-ish ones) or prices. I also suspect difficult to produce the first guzz to genuinely compete with BMW since, erm, 1976, for much less money (i.e.same build quality or better, same engine technology or better, etc)? Oh, dry weight (always a work of fiction, esp from Guzzi) is 214kg, so that stressed engine frame must be a fair bit lighter than, say, the Breva, as somehow they have cut 22kg from what they claim for a 1200 Breva?? I can't imagine the new 8v lump is any lighter? Even if bike is ANY lighter I will be impressed, and they have benchmarked it against a 1200gs, which is impressively light against it's 1150 predecessors? Fuel capacity is only 18 litres, so interesting to see if guzzi claims of improved efficiency over the 4v are borne out, hmmm. I strongly suspect I shall be selling my v11 and 1150GS unless it is a total turkey on the road, which I don't predict, or the early 1200 Grisos start dropping their guts everywhere! ) V7 classic (Spring 2008 launch according to brochure) looked delicious and will be cheap, given it appears to be almost totally 750 Breva based (48 bhp on the specs), so very mild-mannered. So maybe catch some of the bonneville market, but not really a Thruxton contender? For that we'd need a Ballagio engined version A very tired Dave having missed flight home

Steve is spot on, different bikes. I tried holding off a fireblade on my V11 on a typical british A road (i.e. bumpy) and was working twice as hard, he cruised by on a curve where it wasn't down to the power. On the other hand I regularly give japanese firmly suspended sports bikes a hard time on the same roads on the overweight barge of a GS (on the curves, not the straights ). However, none of that really matters to me, it might to you, but if you REGULARLY do two up for any distance, and you acknowledge just how good said barge is in that mode, then don't go with the v11 as your only bike, it will end in disappointment, it's just not that good a 2 up bike.... Cheers Dave

Guy, I share you're excitement, and I'm waiting for something more versatile (in all weathers) to replace my V11 and BMW GS. There is no way on god's green earth that Piaggio, having spent the kind of money that modern engine development, production and certification demands (and this IS Guzzi's first recent engine that can be reasonably described as modern-ish against external benchmarks, though air cooling is fast becoming an anachronism) that they will not try and recover that investment in every sector they can. By the way I like anachronisms So expect it to appear in Stelvio (potential big market, including me!!), "reasonably fast sporty bike like a BMW1200S", poss covered by re-engined 1200 Sport, possibly not, Norge to make it truly competitive with 1200RT etc etc... Hmm when I said every sector, it seems I meant every sector currently earning BMW big bucks (plus the cross over sporty/power cruisery thing that Bee-em are too ugly to cash in on ) Big question for me is timescales on some of this (was stelvio in recent spy shots a mule with 2v engine, or going live with the old engine for example), and how many bugs the thing has from day one, though I suspect Piaggio have more "core competence" in that area than Guzz ever did! (except for the CARC bearing issue ahem) Just my pennorth Dave

Timbo, I own an 1150 GS (adventure) as my daily ride including work trips (about 7-12,000 miles per year) plus an '00 1st gen V11 plus a sixties Bonnie, so well qualified to offer an opinion. As others here have said, depends on what you want and what you expect. The GS is a superb daily bike, and the best 2 up bike I've personally ever used (I've owned 4 of them over 11 years). The satisfaction comes from using it like a trusted tool, utility and fitness for purpose are where the satisfaction lies. It will also tear the headlamp off the V11 on any road with bumps (i.e. Pretty much any non motorway in the uk then). Having said that, it will tear the headlamp of pretty much ANY bike on a road with bumps . You already knew that though! The v11 has it's niggles, reliability and build quality wise, but is as reliable as an anvil compared to any period Triumph. The responses from others here pretty much sum that up. I have had the relay issue (cheap and well documented), and the head bearings have just given up the ghost (almost certainly due to lack of a grease gun on Luigi's shift), also much of the frame & engine finish is peeling off (however later versions without red frame way better). Apart from finish, niggles once fixed don't tend to re-appear. On the other hand it makes people gawp, sounds gorgeous, puts a smile on my face and is quicker than the GS despite less midrange, as it's a fair bit lighter (not many bikes it can say that to though ) The suspension is pretty crude by the standards of almost anything else built in last 20 years, but everything else is ok. Don't listen to half baked road tests talking of crap gearboxes and tractors, it's total bollox. It is (along with a bonnie but with none of the drawbacks) one of the motorbikiest motorbikes you can own, which I suspect is the antidote to the BM you're after? BUT, using it regularly 2 up, or as a commute in vile weather etc, will I suspect, end up with you disliking it more often than you love it. It will do it, just not particularly well. My advice, keep the GS, and get a cheap v11, they are cheap as chips as long as you don't go the dealer route. I or others can advise on the details (recalls etc) you need to look for. I suspect mine is worth WELL under 2000 quid, which is why I'm keeping it (at least until the stelvio appears ) p.s. If you're evr in West London you can take mine for a taz (assuming I do the bearings any day soon) Good luck Dave

[Hey Mdude! I'd be real interested in the dyno figures on that 1200 also. Decent test info is hard to come by on these bikes, they seem to have fallen foul of timing, initial "rush" to buy Brevas and Grisos for all those peeps who fancied a Guzz with something other than late 80s dynamics , but now everyone waiting for the 8 valve Here's a compare with the (more powerful than r1200R) 1200 BMW sport thing. The guzz got a good write up being more user friendly than the contorted Bee-em (which is a bit of a shock to traditional Guzz market), but Guzz is waaay down on power, which may, or may not be important, but sure as hell sells bikes! These are crank figures.. whoops, apologies for stutter, and meant to say "shock to trad Beemer market"! bmw_vs_guzz.pdf

Thanks Rob! That's what I like about this forum, it even helps Laverda owners! (who just happens to own a V11 as well ) Dave London (brightening up for weekend but oil leak and notchy head bearings to sort out on V11

Hi guys, A while since I posted, however... In the middle of restoring/freshening up a Laverda 1200 imported last year from Spain. Got it through the MOT last year by swapping entire headlamp unit from my V11. Yes, Laverda also used this classic piece of fine german engineering Was pondering cheapest source of a left hand dip unit on a permanent basis, it becoming a bit of a pain having to swap headlights I was looking at breakers/fleabay for a Ducati Monster unit, pretty sure the same one as Guzz and Bee-em. However, are we saying that the left hand dip lens will convert the unit from right to left dip on it's own, or is the reflector unit different (which I must admit is what I'd assumed )?? Thanks and apologies for semi-hijack! Dave Rainy London (regretting removing rear mudguard for that sexy naked butt look!)

Pete, Thanks for a decent write up. Agree with you on pretty much everything in terms of riding impression (based on an hour and a half around Surrey lanes & London on a Breva). Interestingly, I was in Brussels with work yesterday. On way back to train station popped into a newsagent and scanned a test in Italian mag Motociclismo of Breva vs R1150R Beemer. Obviously couldn't understand a damn word, but 1st dyno and proper performance figures I've managed to track down at the end. Poor Breva only puts out 71bhp at rear wheel, and torque curve, albeit flatter than a V11 (no glitch at 4k-ish) was 10 ft-lbs below Beemer everywhere, not good. This is the price of getting 2 valve air cooled twin through Euro 3 I suspect. Have seen similar comparisons with an R1150R and a V11 (admittedly with the Guzzi Ti pipes) that only had the V11 2-3 ft-lbs behind the BM everywhere. The BM put out 75 ish from memory (too tight to actually BUY the magazine ) which is pretty typical of Dynojet readings. Same mag tested a Scura or cafe Sport a year or 2 back, and got 80, so if the same dyno (I have no way of knowing) then not a low reading dyno at all Interestingly standing quarter/terminal speeds were very similar, mid twelves, 106 ish mph, so ability of Breva to rev (and change gear without written permission ) played a part?? This all tallys with my riding impression compared to my 1150GS adventure and my V11 sport (i.e. Quicker than GS due mainly to weight, slower than v11). Oh, and for all those who think the Breva is ugly bugly (not me by the way) check it out next to the german competition here! (If it doesn't work just go to motociclismo.it and go into "Archivio Prove".) http://www.motociclismo.it/edisport/moto/n...46?OpenDocument Me? I'm hoping a Griso (with 4bhp more out of the box) and about 14lb less than a Breva) will respond nicely to a Supertrapp on those meaty headers!

Hmmm , I'm with dbdicker on this one. Just sat on the Griso at Inmoto yesterday, and I reckon it's maybe 15-20 lbs heavier than my V11 with Mistral pipes. So figure almost the same once the Canestomy is performed But the REAL difference, will be the suspension, esp the rear. You can throw money at V11 susp (which is what Guzz did with the Cafe Sport ), but you can't get away from the relatively out-dated geometry. I read somewhere an R1 &GSXR1000 have approx 45% of wheelbase in the swing arm. A V11 is around 20% !! Plus no rising rate, so overstiff springs needed.. What this means is outhandling a Breva (which I've ridden on twisty roads for around an hour and a half) would be pretty easy on any V11 given better ground clearance (the Breva downs it's stand on one side fairly early) and slightly more muscle (no Euro3 pollution regs for the v11!). With one Caveat, if the road was smooth. The Breva was WAY better behaved on the kind of roads we have in the UK. The other piece of geometry which will count against the v11 at the limit is front/rear weight distribution, again much nearer modern ideals on the griso/Breva. The v11 FEELS fast, but my big fat (& ugly!)bee-em Adventure will walk away from it on the twisties, with slightly less power and 50lb more weight. Bear also in mind, the Breva is set up soft, the Griso is allegedly firmer, and looks (according to action photos in lot's of tests) WAY better ground clearance than either Breva or Griso. Racing a Fireblade the other day (I know, I know), I was right on the limits, not in terms of grip or clearance, but suspension control. A cafe sport would be better, but not enough (I suspect) to have stopped Fireblade boy sweeping round the outside on a bumpy bend stifling a yawn Anyway, I love V11s, cafe sport 2nd best one after the original green 'un, but let's not kid ourselves about time moving on, that's (part of) the V11 charm?

I live about 2 miles from Set Up, friendly and knowledgable bunch. I popped in there on the V11 once and they gave me some free advice, as I had backed the pre-load off the rear shock to it's minimum to try and help get the over-stiff rear-end to respond better on bumps. I was aso concerned that, in moving the rear reservoir union I might have lost the pressurisation, which I hadn't btw. It was soon clear from what they said that I'd over-done it, but they liked the front end settings (all this based on a quick "bounce each end of the bike up and down a couple of times-you don't get much of anything for free!). The front end was pretty close to standard settings. I also got to dribble over Ewan Magregor's immaculate MV Agusta Every test I've read in American bike mags of the Scura have criticised the behaviour of the rear suspension over bumps, and as they say, ANY suspension can be made to work well on smooth roads! My view is it comes down to 3 things; 1/ The rear suspension has to be overly-stiff (in relative terms) to take account of un-sprung weight from the bevel box. 2/ The linkless set up means the set has to be over-stiff to prevent "bottoming out" (i.e.reaching limit of travel) 3/ The rear swing arm is too short (one scura test compared the length with a Honda VTR1000, which was a good 5 inches longer from memory), hence limited travel. I think given loading a Scura up with top notch components doesn't really improve things greatly, you're gonna struggle to get a step change in behaviour? Just my 2 cents... Dave

Dlaing, I did the bar swap thing earlier this year, used solid mount risers and a renthal alloy mid rise bar. I found the vibration levels far better, even without bar ends. Anyone who has tried the std setup without bar end weights will realise this amounts to a big improvement. I've now fitted small stainless bar end weights just so I could mount the neat little bar end mirror I've had lying around for a year. I also like what it does to the "chuckability" of the ol bus, so did Cycle World who did a similar conversion on there long-termer, they used cali mounts which are rubber mounted. Not necessary imho. First post from a new member! Been reading this forum for a while, figured it was about time I joined in. I only see about 3 V11s a year, and I live in London! Gotta stick together..