callison Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 I had a nice conversation with Mike Rich yesterday, he being the premier Guzzi head porting fellow in the USA, if you're not familiar with the name. He states, quite adamantly, that every Moto Guzzi big block V11 head built since 1995 has soft valve stems. About 28 Rockwell. He won't install anything less than 38 Rockwell or harder. He has a set of heads in his shop (not mine) that have .0015" wear after only 4000 miles. They shouldn't be more than .0005" wear with a lot more miles than that. Mine are the worst he's seen yet at .0035" and 57,233 miles. That valve was so sloppy in the valve guide that it rocked and acted like a cutting tool and chewed up the valve seat. The guide is so loose, exhaust gases used that as an escape route leaving a carbon trail in the port, outside of the port, down the pushrod tunnel and maybe into the block. Carbon so thick and dense that it couldn't be bead blasted off, and chemical removal wasn't entirely successful either. Meaning the remainder will have to be removed by hand when he gets to my heads in a couple of weeks. Now I have to pull my cylinders and see if the tappet and pushrod bore are ruined. That could require replacing the block. I'm not telling you all this to brag about how bad my bike is. I'm putting this out here because we all need to keep an eye on our valves. They can go bad in a very short period of time. Now, does anyone have Ivan Beggio's email address? I want to email him directly about using better quality parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 ...incredible, just as Mike found with my valves. If I remember correctly, my valves were "well on their way" already being about 2 thousandths out, at only 2k miles I'm very sorry to hear that your engine is in such a state, I know that's disappointing. I can only thank the stars that for no other good reason than my "thinking it was neato" that I sent my heads into Mike for porting, and he found the same valve problem and replaced them early. I wonder how many other V11 owners will go without knowing, only to require a complete engine overhaul at 50-60k miles al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 You mind me asking how much he charges to redo a pair of heads? Looks like I'll do that this winter. I'd probably be interested in a mild porting, replace valves. He doesn't have a web presence, does he? That is a real shame that Guzzi would shoot themselves in the foot with this kind of problem. One of the percieved Guzzi advantages is longevity. If they loose that perception, they are hosed (to use the vernacular) Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John T Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Hmmm, Glad the Rosso Mandello was taken care of. Now I have to turn my attention to my EV with 20,000 miles, 98% of that two up and fully loaded. (I don't spare the wip) Guess I could get the heads done and drop in the RM cam that is sitting in a box? Has anyone done this before?? Someone should notify Ken Hand and Todd E (most of his miles put on at redline) I'd like too see those valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IanJ Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 So, this almost seems like a silly question, but isn't this a problem that should ideally be addressed by MGNA/MGItalia? They're using substandard parts on these bikes, we've paid a great deal of money for them, and the problem needs to be addressed. If it's true of every bike they've sold, then this might even be worthy of a class-action suit. No way anyone can claim that this kind of wear is appropriate to a bike with so few miles. Dunno, it seems like every time I turn around, there's another reason to worry that my Guzzi's going to keel over in a very short while. It's tempting to think I should just sell the Guzzi and ride my Ninja 250, without undue fear of random, unpredictable mechanical defects popping up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted June 25, 2003 Share Posted June 25, 2003 Carl, Do I understand you right - that the problem is only in the valves, ie: that the soft stems of the valves wear & cause wear in associated parts - therefore, early replacement of the valves only, with better items, will avoid this problem? Thanks, KB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest russ Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I don't for a minute doubt Mike, he is a known expert but as someone stated earlier, what about Ken Hand and the others who have huge mileage on theirs. There must be a riding style that caused the wear earleir. Reminds me of the BMW Airhead issue in the 70's with the unleaded gas causing valve recession. A problem for some, not all........ It would be great if we could figure the cause of the problem for those with early failures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I don't for a minute doubt Mike, he is a known expert but as someone stated earlier, what about Ken Hand and the others who have huge mileage on theirs. There must be a riding style that caused the wear earleir. Reminds me of the BMW Airhead issue in the 70's with the unleaded gas causing valve recession. A problem for some, not all........ It would be great if we could figure the cause of the problem for those with early failures Actually a couple of the well-known guys with very high mileage on the MGNOC list just posted a couple replies saying that this sounds like the very problem they are having.... and Mike Rich's comments seem to indicate pretty consistent evidence suggesting an endemic problem.... so who knows Perhaps some folks are lucky enough to not have the problem exhibit itself... but I didn't ride or break-in my bike in any fashion that would have overly or unusually stressed the engine. At least in my opinion. But bottom line, the hardness measured by Mike with all the valves showed a substandard valve material which in his opinion caused the wear. They were far too soft. As usual, YMMV, but it's just something to keep an eye on. BTW, although I am the first to point out many of the issues these bikes do have, it's also fair to point out that many of the "appliance like" Japanese bikes have their share of model-specific issues. Just check out any of their forums.. - '02 Honda VFR's and electrical oddities - GSXRs with bad pistons ...etc. So don't let it get you down too much al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 It's the nature of a board that problems get advertising. Why should anyone write in that they had an uneventful ride? There's probably more than just soft valves contributing to wear. Soft valves will wear fast, but the rate will be modulated (enhanced, retarded) by tolerance of the parts assembly. Does anyone know what Rockwell hardness range is reported? Carl? There's quite a variety of them, B,C,F, 15T, 30T... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex-Corsa Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Does anyone know what Rockwell hardness range is reported? Carl? There's quite a variety of them, B,C,F, 15T, 30T... Rockwell hardness scale is a scale to measure as it saids Hardness. This is more often used on various metals and mostly on steels. As reported a 25 or even 35 RC degrees on this scale are rediculuslly low. But more infos here Steel Chart And some steel standerds for convertionsSteel Standards Well lets say a steel that is used for a kitchen knive can be anything from 420 or aus6 (in better quality) or even 440 (C is the hardest) and these hit the scale above 50 to 58 for the 440C Well actually one can feel the difference in softness between a 420HC or J2 to a 440C that is tough and there are only 6 degrees on the scale setting them appart. now I imagine 30-40 degrees. Actually on of the best steels for springs and other stuff on the same subject, is the 1095 or this series of 10 actually(1065 1075) the 1095 beats the s**t out of many and is also used in knife making and the old Japanese swords. Hope that covers your questions about steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeBenGuzzi Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Does this Affect every model year? am I affected with my 2000? I don't really know anything about valves and guides I'm fine wi th small engines and RC cars but I haven't done much with real 4 stroke engines I'm ignorant. Soooo if I have to get the dealer to replace the valves I don't want to know the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RacerX Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Someone should notify Ken Hand and Todd E (most of his miles put on at redline) I'd like too see those valves. Heh, yeah... well over 100k on the Jackal motor, and 55.7k on the V11S motor with no problems or concerns. At all. Carl, I'm not doubting the data, but I suspect if folks just rode them hard and long, and not stress over a motor that has a long life ahead of it. Guzzis still remain to be one of the most durable motors on two wheels. BTW, my 100k+ mile Jackal motor has within 6% compression/leak-down as a brand new bike sitting on the floor... and infact just got a V11 Sport cam (thanks JohnT!), and is looking forward to another 100k. Don't sweat it folks, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuhaV Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 The valve stems and guides in my Sport 1100i were gone at 33000 km just the way it have been described above. I suspect that the soft materials of those together with somewhat aggressive cams make both Sportis and V11s prone to this problem. I believe that Stones and Californias with smaller valves and less aggressive cams might not have that problem even if the material hardness would be the same ? Interestingly, the wear of the stems was not evident at all before I pulled of the head and detached the valves. My repair was K-lining and new valves from Mike Rich. I considered the change of the complete guides excessively brutal. K-lining should work ok and can be repeated if necessary. br, JuhaV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callison Posted May 4, 2005 Author Share Posted May 4, 2005 Heh, yeah... well over 100k on the Jackal motor, and 55.7k on the V11S motor with no problems or concerns. At all. Carl, I'm not doubting the data, but I suspect if folks just rode them hard and long, and not stress over a motor that has a long life ahead of it. Guzzis still remain to be one of the most durable motors on two wheels. BTW, my 100k+ mile Jackal motor has within 6% compression/leak-down as a brand new bike sitting on the floor... and infact just got a V11 Sport cam (thanks JohnT!), and is looking forward to another 100k. Don't sweat it folks, Todd 50471[/snapback] As it turns out, Mike was referring to the big valve motors, not the California, EV's et al. Mea culpa. I don't listen fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freeman Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 I have a 2002 LeMans. Is there anyway that the dealer can easily check the valves for wear without it costing me a fortune? Or even better, is this a simple replacement that should just be done to be safe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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