rossoandy Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 Hi all, Got the rosso back on the road today, two hours later it was off again.... Took it out for a run and a couple of those Honda fireplace things had the audacity to overtake me! I cogged down and flew after emm....took one of emm round the next bend and then we braked hard for a junction, into first and wheelied up the road, into second and hit the limiter and....it died on me with an ominous rattle....oh shite Spins over on starter but with no sign of any comperession...reckon the camshaft nut came adrift.... oh well out with the toolkit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 Sorry to hear, Andy. But you know wot happens when you play around with the fireplace. . . Hope it's a simple & easy fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossoandy Posted April 22, 2007 Author Share Posted April 22, 2007 Sorry to hear, Andy. But you know wot happens when you play around with the fireplace. . . Hope it's a simple & easy fix. Pah.....I just like pouring water on their fires.. Thanks Ratchet, if its what I think it is it'l be the camshaft or crankshaft nut that holds the timing gears/chain come undone thus loosing all valve timing and bending a few valves too. My last Rosso suffered the same failure and the symptoms are identical. Is this a common fault with this engine or do I jus ride it to 11/10ths too often! Why is there a timing gear conversion available I wonder.. I need to get it fixed quickly, just hope parts available here in UK. I will add to this thread soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 This could be a bodge point situation. I think you proved yourself a better rider than the fireplace man you overtook, but attempting to out drag a fireplace from a standing start? Obviously your launch control was all there, unfortunately you lunched the motor in the process. I would suggest that trying to use a V11 to out-drag a fireplace is analogous to using a screwdriver as a chisel. Using the wrong tools for the job is bodging. I expect these guys went home all smug thinking they chose the right (jap I4) bikes and full of new pub stories about the fragility of Guzzis, and how they goaded a Guzzist into lunching his engine. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeBenGuzzi Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 OH you better believe the man is getting a point btw I Luuuuve Rosso Mandello's be nicer to'em would ya? I'm in the process of making my own Rosso Mandello redframed beauty, looks like an italian christmas card right now but at least it turns heads baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted April 22, 2007 Share Posted April 22, 2007 Pah.....I just like pouring water on their fires.. Thanks Ratchet, if its what I think it is it'l be the camshaft or crankshaft nut that holds the timing gears/chain come undone thus loosing all valve timing and bending a few valves too. My last Rosso suffered the same failure and the symptoms are identical. Is this a common fault with this engine or do I jus ride it to 11/10ths too often! Why is there a timing gear conversion available I wonder.. I need to get it fixed quickly, just hope parts available here in UK. I will add to this thread soon... I have to say that cam and crank nuts coming adrift is very, very rare. I've never seen it happen on ones that are tightened up sufficiently and they are usually as tight as buggery from the factory. As for timing gears? Well, if it is a loose nut having gears rather than a chain and sprockets would make absolutely no difference. You'd still have a buggered top end. While I don't think there is a specific gearset designed for models with the 'Phonic wheel' behind the camshaft sprocket it would be very easy to modify a set for an older bike simply by turning the rquired thickness off the boss on the cam gear. As you probably know though I don't believe that there is a decent or safe gearset available on the market for ANY of the big block Moto Guzzis and see nothing to be gained by fitting them. Given the circumstances in which the engine failed I'd be more inclined to think it could be the result of the dreaded oil pick-up exposure rather than cam related but if you've experienced this problem before....... Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 As you probably know though I don't believe that there is a decent or safe gearset available on the market for ANY of the big block Moto Guzzis and see nothing to be gained by fitting them. I think the way around the first point is to make the crank gear out of steel. I don't think there is an argument against your second point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 I think the way around the first point is to make the crank gear out of steel. I don't think there is an argument against your second point. Jason, about five years ago or so I bought a very expensive set of timing gears from Stein Dinse. These were a helically cut, fine toothform set with a steel crank gear and an alloy pair for oil pump and cam. I was assured that these were the answer to a maiden's prayer, were vernierable, offered extraordinary accuracy and would never wear out etc, etc. I installed them on my SP, scarcely a fire breather, and it was immediately apparent that they were extraordinarily noisy which surprised me for a helically cut set. Anyway, a few months after I'd installed them another bloke on Phil's forum posted saying how he had the same set and had suffered a catastrophic failure. This prompted me to pop the timing chest off for a looksee and sure enough both cam and oil pump gear were galling up in a manner that I considered unacceptable. So I took 'em out and put a chain back in with a Valtech tensioner, end of problem. It was after that that another character started to get seriously stuck into me on the same forum about my criticism of alloy gearsets. His belief was that as long as they were installed properly, (the implication was always that I didn't know what I was doing.) alloy gears would last forever, he even posted up a pic of a set of gears from his bike to prove it. To me they looked thouroughly munted but I didn't know what I was talking about Anyway, for some reason he decided that it all had to be personal and it got terrifically boring very quickly. I will not resile from my belief that any of the currently available gearsets are at best a lottery. I know of people who have had them in for years with no problems they know of, but few of them have looked to the best of my knowledge. My biggest dislike of them is that as the teeth gall up they wear by tearing off tiny particles of alloy from the gear teeth. Some if not all of these particles are small enough to pass through the oil filter, (Or maybe they clog it early so it starts to by-pass.) and they end up in the second line of defence, the sludge trap in the crank. I have yet to take a crank out of an alloy gear equipped bike that didn't have a sludge trap chocka-block with alloy paste. As I always say, it's entirely up to individual owners what they put in their engines. I don't give a fig. I do strongly advise against the fitting of alloy timing gears though and I won't install them for people even if they beg me to. And the gains of having the cam timed in to the absolute 'N'th degree are unlikely to be noticeable on a road going Guzzi engine. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzirider Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 I guess the wheelies won't have helped! Hope its something simple! Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzi2Go Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 If I may add to what Pete is saying, although not based on 1st hand experience. I sold my first Guzzi (Mille GT) to a guy who's timing gears wrecked his engine. Apparently the alloy gears wore far quicker than a chain would, dispersing the particles throughout the engine in the process. As I read in other forums (Honda CX 500 related, where loose cam chains tend to chew on the engine casing doing the same thing as the cam gears on Guzzi), it is simply not worth it to attempt to clean up the engine (or was it impossible?). Hence the new/old bike, or 2700 on the pain scale. From other things that I read, Guzzi cam chain has a decent life span and is fairly easy to access and replace, unlike engine out of the frame job on CX 500, where they last half as long as on Guzzi's. Can't see why would I be needing timing gears. Now we got off topic a bit, sorry about that rossoandy. Hope it's a quick fix. Inexpensive too. You'll burn those fireplaces next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Pete, that's interesting. My great idea of a center steel gear might not be so great after all. It's not the first time. But I'm kind of surprised to be honest. Using different metals should have an ameliorating effect on the problem of galling- I thought that was caused by using two contacting soft metals. Now what am I going to do with the set of timing gears that I've had on the shelf for the last 10 years? Well, anyhow, this isn't the place and I will bow out. Hope your bike is ok RossoAndy- I'll hoist a glass of wine for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Jason, my reply wasn't implying any criticism of your thinking. I agree, in theory a bi-metal set *should* be better. All I was doing is communicating my experience. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossoandy Posted April 24, 2007 Author Share Posted April 24, 2007 Well guys...I got it partially stripped today, and yes, it was the camshaft nut come undone! I am going to reset the timing in the vain hope it hasnt touched the valves? Does anyone know if they fail safe? There is NO lock tab just a wavy washer to lock it done up. loctite threads I will... oh and then do a comp test.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Has it sheared the locating pin? If not the timing won't of been effected. I'd double check that before I just tried tightening up the nut again. If it has sheared then the cam timing will of been lost and tightening the nut will achieve nothing apart from a securely incorrectly timed cam. If the timing has slipped it is extremely unlikely that you won't of caused considerable damage. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Pete, I b'lieve this is wot's referred to by the Pro's as an "interference" motor. Yes? Andy's been "blessed" by this same thing twice with 2 different RM's. Wot're the probabilities?! Andy -- please don't wander around outside in a lightning storm. . . . Pete, I take it by your previous comments that this is enough of an anomaly, in your opinon, not to go in and "fix wot ain't broke" -- just f'er insurance purposes -- carefully considering the magnitude of "worse case scenario", of course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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