Front forks

[gstallons]

I see some owners have installed Ohlins on their bikes ttat came with Marzocchi brand. Everyone that did is happier and about $1500.00 usd lighter. Can the Marzocchi forks be reworked to perform up to Ohlins quality? Also Showa forks are available at a bargain price.Can they be reworked to perfrom to Ohlin standards? Also do the Showa need all the adaptation mods the Ohlins do?

[Admin Jaap]

With a bit of work the Marzocchis can perform a lot better. There are some members who did rework the forks and are quite happy.

I guess some of them will chime in.

[S251]

I see some owners have installed Ohlins on their bikes ttat came with Marzocchi brand. Everyone that did is happier and about $1500.00 usd lighter. Can the Marzocchi forks be reworked to perform up to Ohlins quality? Also Showa forks are available at a bargain price.Can they be reworked to perfrom to Ohlin standards? Also do the Showa need all the adaptation mods the Ohlins do?

 

Yeah, it all a bit confusing bcause a lot of Ohlins fitted V11s such as SCURAs have a few quirks that the others don't. Sure the Ohlins are smooth and adjustable but they do need a lot more care and maintenance. Reworking the originals seems a better option.

 

good luck

PeterD S251

[Paul Minnaert]

all showas are to short. no option. And if they come in then need a lot more adaptation then the ohlins. If you have a bike with new type marzochi, 43mm forks, only thing to change is the mudgard, can't call that adaptation. The work on older bikes is only because you go to a bigger spindle.

 

So have reworked a marzochi, but in the end weren't that satisfied, or bought a ohlins. And then what costs this mod? more then you think.

[GuzziMoto]

Can the Marzochi fork be made to work as smoothly as the Ohlins? Not likely. Can it be made to work a lot better then it does? Yes. It is much like the rest of the Guzzi, basically a good design but the details were not done right. The hardest part is finding someone who can and will work on them since they are not a popular fork. I did mine myself. I found that the adjuster had zero effect because the cartridge body had three good sized holes in it. So I blocked one of the holes off and now I can adjust the forks dampning with the adjusters. I can also change the weight of the oil and now it will make a difference. This was on a 2001 V11. I don't know if your forks are the same as mine but if you take them apart, pull the springs out, and put them back together you can feel what the dampning is or isn't doing. You can also feel for any stiction that might indicate an issue that neeeds addressing with the bushings or the fork tubes.

Having said that, if I could afford the Ohlins I would have them.

[BRENTTODD]

My stock forks were redone before i bought my bike. I think the work very well Steve said the same thing. I am also a 250 pounder and they seem fine with the stiffer springs and different oil. The rear shock is to soft though. I shoud check my paperwork to see who did them. Ill let u know

[Dan M]

It's the old "you get what you pay for". Ohlins are arguably the best. There are several approaches to take with the Marz fork that will give terrific results. At minimum, get the proper spring rate, set sag correctly and change to a light synthetic cartridge fluid. Doing that is relatively inexpensive and will transform the bike. Beyond that, further mods are considerably more money and then you are narrowing the $ gap compared to going toward Ohlins.

[Guest ratchethack]

Wot Dan said. I would add that wot's "the best" for one rider might mean something entirely different to the next, and that forks (all suspension components, really) is a topic area where ignorance, false sales hype, popular delusion, "consensus", and frankly, um, "challenging ego situations" typically run amok, taking many a rider down a bad road unawares (sometimes literally!), along with doing considerable damage to bank accounts all across the hard-scrabble, frequently flaky, here-today-and-gone-tomorrow, and often mysterious world of the moto-aftermarket. It's a freakin' jungle out there. How's a rider to comprehend, let alone cope well enough to make good choices?!

 

ANSWER: Best do y'er frickin' homework, Binky.

 

Boy do some people hate that. They just wanna have fun! If it makes their head hurt (particularly if there's much of any reading involved, let alone learning) -- Well, let's face it -- for many, this is too much like school, f'er cryin' out loud, and it just ain't worth the effort. O' course there's some validity in that approach, too, I suppose. It's a Free World (well, at least there's a still a remnant of it where most of us live) and to each his own.

 

My take, being merely a dedicated Road Geez, has been to ignore wot the high-zoot "racing types" are hawking unless you're doing serious racing. Seems reasonable enough, doesn't it? Yet many's the commuter, weekend "adventure tourer", and casual pleasure rider who's been duped into a bad decision (read that, both expensive and ill-matched) that's tough to justify in retrospect by failing to understand that many sophisticated and expensive "racing" suspension components aren't particularly well suited for wot most riders on the road are doing with their moto's. Such is the nature of the moto-world, n'est-ce pas? And waddayagonna do?

 

As Dan points out, getting spring rates properly matched to load -- alone -- depending on how far off it is to start with, can absolutely transform an ill-handling bike in an incredibly positive way, and many Marz forks (mine included) came with springs hopelessly mismatched to my riding weight (180 lbs. with full Vanson riding gear).

 

There've been those on this Forum who've replaced Marz forks with Ohlins without attempting to get the spring rate on the Marz fork matched to load in the first place, and have "concluded" only in retrospect, from the positive transformation in handling going to the Ohlins (with properly matched spring rates), that Marz forks are garbage. One might correctly consider this throwing the baby out with the bathwater, unless one wants to attempt to justify doing this in retrospect by concluding that Marz forks aren't "good enough" -- having never remotely understood their capabilities on their own bike from the get-go, while there was a perfect, relatively low-cost, low effort opportunity to do so already mounted on their bike! Of course, this is an irrational, backwards-driven conclusion, but there you have it.

 

For most riders (myself included), a Marz fork (I speak only for the Marz 040 USD, but many other models are similar enough, and spring rate principles apply to all forks), once sprung and preloaded properly with proper sags, damped with appropriate settings, correctly matched with CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID, and air gaps set properly, is nothing much less than a superb road fork for most practical purposes on the road IMHO -- yes, even without revalving! I will more'n likely never have any interest in "performance upgrading" my fork, but that's just me. As with ANY fork, for starters, you simply have to get the spring rates right to allow you to get BOTH the laden and unladen sags right, otherwise you have ZERO possibility of achieving the original engineering objectives of the fork -- and that's always true, regardless of wot fork you have, and regardless of whether you've "performance upgraded" (aka revalved) it or not. Simple fact, no exceptions.

 

Over the years, I've discovered that a surprising number of riders don't, won't, or simply can't comprehend setting sags properly (both laden and unladen). They seem to get scared off, and don't want to admit they don't understand, finding it more convenient to live in denial, and "wishing" for a "bolt-on" solution that will take the need to comprehend what they're doing away with wot they're replacing. O' course this is sheer folly, and denial here can hurt -- bad. Nothing particularly wrong with not comprehending, but it's pretty simple stuff, even though it can get counter-intuitive, and therefore confusing. That's why we have suspension Pro's -- of all flavors, shapes & sizes. Caveat emptor!

 

I'm neither sorry, intimidated, nor shy about observing that evidently many riders replace the Marz fork to achieve the nice gold ti-nitrided Ohlins "look" -- for the "bling factor" alone, without much (if any) regard to setting up the fork properly. Now if boulevard parading, parking lot posing, and butt jewelry be the real objectives, why then I reckon such a match might be made in heaven -- but in such a case as this, I wouldn't know, nor would I presume to guess?!

 

-- Cdr. Hatchracket, Krotchety Krank, and Forum Kurmudgeon

[dlaing]

There've been those on this Forum who've replaced Marz forks with Ohlins without attempting to get the spring rate on the Marz fork matched to load in the first place, and have "concluded" only in retrospect, from the positive transformation in handling going to the Ohlins (with properly matched spring rates), that Marz forks are garbage.

Can you actually name even two people that did that and referred to the Marz as garbage?

I for one, am one of the few on the forum that have "replaced Marz forks with Ohlins without attempting to get the spring rate on the Marz fork matched to load in the first place," and concluded that I got a much better ride that would not be matched by spring and oil change alone in the Marzocchi. Sure, the Marzocchi could be sent to Traxxion and many dollars later return with some of the adjustability disabled, but you'd have a better than stock setup.

I'd like to ride a bike that is set up like that, back to back against the Ohlins. My money is on the Ohlins being much more comfortable, and if set up right the Ohlins will be every bit as controlled.

But I am pretty sure I never referred to the Marzocchi forks as garbage.

Heck, garbage has no value worth bothering with and I'd bother to eBay my used Marzocchi forks for no less than $300, so it does not quite qualify as garbage.

In the mean time, I save the Marz forks in case I destroy the Ohlins, but if someone wants to trade them for an over-powering Stucchi crossover or an under-powering QuatD, its a deal!

[Tom M]

Here's a review on the Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 cartridge that I believe a few members here have installed in their 'zokes.

 

http://www.2wf.com/content/view/1404/45/

 

The reviewer installed them in a GSXR1000 race bike and didn't feel they worked much better than stock until he was really pushing it on a race track. Since the GSXR doesn't have Marzocchi forks the review isn't worth much to us other than pointing out that the cartridges do allow much better adjustability than stock GSXR forks (which are likely better than our 'zokes), and each of those adjustments could be felt by the reviewer.

 

As others have said, the 'zoke can be made much better than stock for not much money, but they won't be a good as well set up Ohlins. Whether or not "better than stock" is good enough for you is a personal decision.

 

FWIW I installed new springs, set the sag, changed the fluid, and played with different the air gaps on my Marzocchi. It's far better than stock, but I think there's still plenty of room for improvement. It's much better on big hits but a little harsh on smaller bumps like bridge expansion joints on the highway. I went to lighter oil in the compression leg this winter, but haven't had the bike out yet to tell if that made much of a difference. (Been waiting for parts and better weather. Better weather arrived this week, parts due in today )

[GuzziMoto]

What you gain with the Ohlins is smoother action with less stiction and less unsprung weight. Valving can always be adjusted to suit the rider. The biggest problem with the Mazochi fork for me was that the compression leg stock has no valving. It has several holes in the cartridge tube that work like a damper rod in an old fashioned fork. The oil does not have to go thru the valving in the piston until the forks are compressed 3/4 of the way. Changing the valving will not help unless you force at least some of the oil to go thru the valving. How you do that is up to you. You could just keep increasing the weight of the oil until you get some resistence to the oil going thru the holes in the cartridge, but by the time that worked, the oil would be pretty thick. Thick oil is more prone to foaming and fade. It is better to run the thin oil and inrease the resistence thru valving.

Ohlins are sweet. But you can get a Marzochi fork to work almost as well for alot less then the cost of the Ohlins. If you have the money the Ohlins is better. But if you don't, it's okay. The Marzochis have potential. You just need to refine the details. Just like anything else on a Guzzi.

[Guest ratchethack]

Can you actually name even two people that did that and referred to the Marz as garbage?

I for one, am one of the few on the forum that have "replaced Marz forks with Ohlins without attempting to get the spring rate on the Marz fork matched to load in the first place," and concluded that I got a much better ride that would not be matched by spring and oil change alone in the Marzocchi. Sure, the Marzocchi could be sent to Traxxion and many dollars later return with some of the adjustability disabled, but you'd have a better than stock setup.

I'd like to ride a bike that is set up like that, back to back against the Ohlins. My money is on the Ohlins being much more comfortable, and if set up right the Ohlins will be every bit as controlled.

But I am pretty sure I never referred to the Marzocchi forks as garbage.

Heck, garbage has no value worth bothering with and I'd bother to eBay my used Marzocchi forks for no less than $300, so it does not quite qualify as garbage.

In the mean time, I save the Marz forks in case I destroy the Ohlins, but if someone wants to trade them for an over-powering Stucchi crossover or an under-powering QuatD, its a deal!

Um, Dave. I thought you were supposed to be working under strict supervision somewhere, where the penalty for being caught on this Forum was prohibitive during working hours?

 

If not, wot took you so long to reply?

 

Of course I wasn't attempting to single you out, Dave, and I made no comments wotsoever about what you may or may not have said of any kind, so there's really no need to lash out in defense mode. But of course you were compelled to reply, and now you "challenge" one irrelevant part of my post by backing my main point with a perfect example.

 

If you do enough searches here (that I'm not inclined to do), you will find multiple derogatory references to Marz forks over the years -- well over several. If you're sincerely interested, you'll find them. You will no doubt find my posts in and amongst them, asking the obvious Q: "Have you ever ridden a V11 with Marz fork properly sprung, with preloads and sags properly set?" Of course it's impossible to evaluate ANY fork properly without doing this. It's is the same Q you can't answer in the affirmative now, and the same Q many couldn't credibly answer over the years for the same reason.

 

Now if it were somehow possible for you to've learned how to determine that, "I got a much better ride that would not be matched by spring and oil change alone in the Marzocchi" without ever having ridden the bike correctly sprung with the Marz fork in the first place -- well then! -- I reckon you possess mysterious powers beyond mortal earthlings. Well-developed divination and Voodoo powers are rare and highly sought after strengths to have on your resume in some circles, and you must be in high demand! But then, per previous posts, if you "know" that your infamous V11 Hayabusa Eater "exists", well -- this opens up the floodgates to just about anything you want to dream up, doesn't it?

 

What would be even more interesting to know is if you'd spent the money on the Marz fork that you spent on the Ohlins, as you've suggested above, and what kinds of performance could've been achieved for a comparison under a fair and equal test of some kind? Making a direct comparison at that point would've been of interest to many -- myself included.

 

I'm afraid, however, that you've taken an approach that leaves you without any possible fair way to draw a comparison on your own without engaging in raw, unsubstantiated speculation -- and haven't we seen more'n enough of a great wallopping heap o' that already!?

 

Please allow me to clarify before you attempt to twist wot I've said into something I haven't (you see, I've learned my lessons well!): Absent an apples-to-apples approach, you simply never had any frame of reference for a fair comparison, Dave.

 

Now you may well have achieved superior fork performance with your Ohlins-Marz trade than ever possible by simply springing the Marz properly with or without revalve work -- but you'll never know for sure -- nor by how much, will you, except by the word of others -- based on who knows wot? What I suggest you've used as the basis of your conclusion (see above), Dave, is a combination of unqualified and unquantified "consensus", and your usual huge dollop o' raw speculation, capped off with an otherwise baseless justification for your effort and expense, both before and after the fact -- again, this is obviously a backwards rationale -- unless of course, your true objective were strictly cosmetic. In that case, no functional comparison of any kind would have been of the slightest interest to you, anyway, would it??

[dlaing]

Um, Dave. I thought you were supposed to be working under strict supervision somewhere, where the penalty for being caught on this Forum was prohibitive during working hours?

 

If not, wot took you so long to reply?

What a weird penalty that would be. Where is our grammar policeman?

I break the rules at work all the time and regularly exceed 40 hours per week of actual work.

It is not prohibited to take a break.

Today I am celebrating National Relay to the Rally Day, so I am not at work

Yardwork kept me from replying earlier

It is a shame you won't be riding with us.

 

and now you "challenge" one irrelevant part of my post by backing my main point with a perfect example.

 

Is there something wrong with being truthful, rather than trying to WIN?

Speaking of truthful you said,

If you do enough searches here (that I'm not inclined to do), you will find multiple derogatory references to Marz forks over the years -- well over several.

Which may be true, but I doubt anyone followed the pattern you outlined:

There've been those on this Forum who've replaced Marz forks with Ohlins without attempting to get the spring rate on the Marz fork matched to load in the first place, and have "concluded" only in retrospect, from the positive transformation in handling going to the Ohlins (with properly matched spring rates), that Marz forks are garbage.

Slandering the alleged anonymous, Bravo!

 

 

It's pretty tough to make a case that you were ever in any position to make anything close to a fair comparison between the Marz fork that came with your Guzzi and the Ohlis one you replaced it with, if that's really wot you intend to propose here, Dave.

I made a perfectly fair comparison.

And yes, just for giggles, since your grammar is so awesome today, I intend to propose that I was in a "position to make anything close to a fair comparison between the Marz fork that came with your Guzzi and the Ohlis one you replaced it with"

Or better yet, for clarity's sake, I'll just make a statement,

I replaced my Marz with Ohlins and fairly compared them, and came to the determination that the Ohlins worked vastly better.

What I am not is a position to fairly compare is exactly how good the Marz can be, compared to the Ohlins.

I only have the FACTS to deal with.

A FACT is that the Ohlins out of the box offer superior performance to the Marz.

A FACT is that the Ohlins offer a network of service centers that specialize in making them better.

A FACT is that the Ohlins use a bigger axle and have more robust clamps at the axle than the Marz.

A FACT is that the Ohlins have thicker fork tubes than the Marz that was on my bike.(arguably better)

A FACT is that the Ohlins have a superior(arguably) coating on the fork tube(but you could have that added to your Marz)

A FACT is that the Ohlins are know for having less static friction at the expense of increased blown seals.

A FACT is that Traxxion will reduce the external adjustability of the Marz when they optimize them.

A FACT is that a certain forum member was disappointed by the results from the work of one of Traxxion's competitors.

I am not sure about unsprung weight.

The overall weight of the Ohlins seemed heavier to me.

And I still have not had the Ohlins professionally optimized...nor am I even at the ideal spring rate yet that should, if I follow convention, be about 10-15% firmer. (I have been waiting 34 months and 18,000 miles for the seals to blow, as they are alleged to do!!!)

If you go from Marz to Ohlins you quickly realize that re-springing and oil alone won't make the Marz match the Ohlins.

Divination not required. Head in the sand mastery required to think that the Marz will match the Ohlins from just an Oil and spring change.

[Guest ratchethack]

OMG, no.

 

It's unfathomable to me how you can dance all around the main point whilst ignoring it completely Dave, yet you're The Consummate Master of doing exactly that. I reckon practice makes perfect. This must be working well for you somewhere, Dave -- otherwise you'd never attempt it here. But have you EVER known me to let you get away with it? ONCE?? D'you always figure I'm gonna let you slide for the first time, every time you attempt to slip another great gibbering whopper in under the radar?!

 

How many times, and in how many different ways must it be said before it gets through to you??

 

The MAIN POINT I'd made above, which is the SAME POINT I've made for years, probably dozens of times, in suspension threads where you've participated, is this:

It is IMPOSSIBLE to make any kind of a fair and proper evaluation of any fork, unless that fork has been set up properly with spring rates matched to the load, and pre-loaded so that sags -- both laden and unladen -- are correctly set.

You had never ridden your Guzzi with the Marz fork with anything but the stock .64 kg springs, a proper rate for someone of close to 100 lb. less than your weight. You'd never attempted to get the rate correct before replacing the whole fork! It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a fair comparison with any other fork on that basis.

 

Capice?

 

But I tire now of conversing with a fence-post, and it's time for meeting the lads at the local watering hole for Feckless Friday Festivities, Serious Discussions, and High Jinks Aplenty. . .

[macguzzi]

I wish I had time in my life to read this pish ( not intended to insult original poster) forks are forks they go up and down you pays for what you get END OF