Question: Opinions on Carillo Rods

[al_roethlisberger]

Here's a question in regards to real world

rideability...

 

I was just speaking with Mike Rich, and was discussing

some potential engine modifications for this Winter

since my engine will be apart anyway due to the paint

bubbling warantee work on my 2002 V11 LeMans.

 

One of the items we discussed were the oft popular

Carillo rods.

 

Already understanding the benefits, which really are

only quicker acceleration, I was more curious what

some pitfalls might be... if any.

 

He suggested that on my bike, since I have the

"normal" V11 dual-disc clutch, any negative impact

would be minimal. But he did say that on some bikes

were they had the special single-disc clutch, or

otherwise really lightened reciprocating/rotating

engine mass, real world driveability could be impacted

for some people. He said that if one prefers a

smoother idle, and wants to avoid more extreme on-off

throttle and engine-braking transitions... in other

words a smoother and milder bike versus a bucking

racey bike... then perhaps sticking with the very

good, indestructable, but about 300 grams heavier OEM

connecting rods.

 

 

*whew*... so here's my question. For those that have

the "old" Sport 1100s that have the same engine as my

LeMans but with Carillo rods from the factory, and for

those that have V11 Sport/LeMans that have modified

their engines with these rods.... what has been your

practical and real-world experience? Are the benefits

really that noticeable, as compared to other

modifications(bang for buck question), and perhaps

even more importantly, were there any regrets or

observations that the rods introduced some less

desireable effect.

 

In the end I can probably afford the rods, but it is a

$500 expenditure, and nothing is more disappointing

than to spend that kind of money and not only not

realize a "gain", but realize that the result is

actually less desireable than what you had to begin

with.

 

...and I definitely would trade a smooth-running bike

over a bike that accelerates just a bit better, but

idles rough and has a higher propensity to pop-stall.

 

 

For those that ride Sport 1100s and V11 Sports, this

question is espeicially valid for you, as you have

first-hand experience with essentially identical

engines, sans the different rod weights.

 

Thanks in advance for any opinions!

 

al

[Admin Jaap]

Don't. Spend the money on your girlfriend, you'll get more out of her

[al_roethlisberger]

[Admin Jaap]

TinkerAl,

 

Seriously, if your bike is as smooth as you say, don't change it (and spend $500 and risk ruining it) but ride it!

[al_roethlisberger]

TinkerAl,

 

Seriously, if your bike is as smooth as you say, don't change it (and spend $500 and risk ruining it) but ride it!

 

 

...true, but then again, it will already be apart for the engine case swap

 

In this case, I'm actually trying to reduce the amount of "down time" by doing everything at once.

 

But understood

 

al

[Paul Minnaert]

Al,

Only the 1100sport corsa and the centauro/daytona RS/daytona racing had the carillo rods from factory.

 

If you see the carillo rods, and the guzzi rods( picture somewhere on the raceco.com site), then you are ready to spend the money. I never heard of negative things about using them.

But if you get 500 $ more fun, I doubt that. And since you are not interested in racing, or high revs, don't do it. Better spend the money on the heads or nice pistons. If you want to spend.

[Mike Stewart]

Al,

 

Stronger and lighter are the way to go. When my engine comes apart, I am looking into lighting the crank/rods and flywheel. Never heard of Carillo rods having any problems, as they are on my list also.

 

Mike

[dlaing]

My understanding is that because the Rods rotate, decreasing their mass will allow for faster accelleration but less smooth throttle control, which is what Mike Rich seems to suggest.

But not onlly do the rods rotate, but they also reciprocate. Because the rods reciprocate, decreasing their mass will allow for higher rpms and less wear.

You can imagine the stresses and vibration caused by the path that the rod takes.

Counter balancing a piston must be trivial compared to counter balancing a rod, or in guzzi's case, a pair of rods.

Yowzers! I am getting dizzy just thinking about the path they take!

[Guest John T]

Well Al, it all depends on what you want your bike to do for you. (and how you ride)

 

1. Do you want to make it a sport touring bike to take you to far away places with long days in the saddle cruising the highways and byways? Two up sometimes?

 

2. Or, do you want to go canyon/backroad riding where you are leaning way over in turns and exploding out going through the gears enjoying the wonderfull sounds a well massaged Guzzi engine makes as it rips to the redline in every gear??

 

If you want 1 above, no need for the Carrillo rods. Enjoy the heavy flyweel effect that lets you be lazy and loaf along enjoying the torque and smooth power at medium revs.

 

If you want #2 then yes, get the Carrillos. You will enjoy a free reving motor that pulls very fast through the gears as well as being very snappy when downshifting.

You will also enjoy the fact that you will have a very bulletproof engine plus the "cool" factor stating you put "Carrillos" in.

 

Raceco tore into the V11 sport engines early and discovered new rods made by "the ugly rod company" They found them to be vastly different from other rods previously used by Guzzi and called them extremely heavy and prone to ovalizing the big ends in motors that were modified or run very hard.

 

They liked the rods used in the older sports saying that they were (somewhat) lighter and showed no signs of failing.

 

My Sunday rides with the boys find my Rosso Mandello in the company of 2 modified R1's, a Honda 929 and a Ducati 748. (and the odd Gixxer)

 

Corners are no problem as I can keep up but I found myself torturing the poor Guzzi trying to keep up on the straights and felt bad beating the bike, so off for some mods.

 

After the mods, (headwork, Carrillos, balancing, Cam, Custom PC maps Ti-pusrods etc) I still cant keep up with the R1's but I don't feel bad pushing the bike anymore knowing the motor is going to stay together. It just feels better!

 

Note: I did not plan or even consider that my Guzzi would be an R1 beater, not the mission of this bike, just keeps them in site a little better now!

 

 

The lighter engine gives much more engine braking entering corners. Very little need for brakes (the way I like to ride) in corners. It was funny the first time I attacked the twisties with the lighter motor, I would let off the gas and slow way down! Had to get back on the gas!

Dive deeper in corners and let the motor slow you down.

 

Another note: The single plate clutch set found in the Rosso Mandello, Scura and Tenni are over 2 kilos lighter than the standard two plate setup. Much more durable also. This along with the lighter rods make this probably the lightest Guzzi street motor to date. I don't think you will be "too light" with your clutch setup.

 

So, Downsides? Yes, very few and not bad.

The motor is super smooth above say 4500rpm to redline. It makes power clean to the rev limiter and I don't feel bad keeping the revs way up when doing the backroad dance.

 

It also will gladly cruise along at 3000 rpms and is about as smooth as my bike before the mods. Yes a heavy flywheel is good in traffic and slow touring so yes I have stalled it once or twice so far at lights. Idle is fine, no adjustments needed.

I do feel the motor a little more in town, just the feel of the motor making power. You can feel each cylinder pounding out the power but smooths out at higher revs. On/off throttle transitions a little more pronounced.

 

So, I think I accomplished what I wanted with the RM, a really strong street motor that is bulletproof, drivable and not peaky.

 

My EV is for cruising and touring so the RM was my "project" bike.

 

My next project is to make the EV a "torque monster" for slow, easy touring. Might need a Cam and other goodies.

 

Time to start wrenching!

[al_roethlisberger]

Another note: The single plate clutch set found in the Rosso Mandello, Scura and Tenni are over 2 kilos lighter than the standard two plate setup. Much more durable also. This along with the lighter rods make this probably the lightest Guzzi street motor to date. I don't think you will be "too light" with your clutch setup.

 

John,

 

Thanks for the detailed response. Yep, Mike Rich and I actually talked about your bike specifically as a point of reference

 

I think I am somewhere in between your 1 & 2 options... of course , probably leaning more toward option 1, although as of late I haven't had any real opportunities for long leisurely rides

 

So I'll just "think on it" and see how the finances turn out in a few months. Dinero make be the final arbiter...

 

I'm actually quite interested in the "gun bored" Carillo Rods that Carl mentioned, as being a tad heavier than the standard Carillos, but having the oil-jet for cooling the pistons. This might be a good compromise, and good for engine longevity. I don't know anything about these, but have an email off to Mike Rich asking about them.

 

 

So as an aside, your comment on the light single plate clutch that was in the Rosso Mandello, Tenni, and Scura being more durable is interesting... Mike was actually mentioning that he's been hearing about a lot of failures for this clutch, as it is apparently tearing up splines, etc... He said he's guessing it's going to be another warantee nightmare for Guzzi like the engine paint, and that the "plain" dual disc setup on the rest of the V11s is turning out to be more durable I have no idea. Has anyone else heard this??

 

al

[al_roethlisberger]

Well, just off the phone with Mike Rich...

 

Says that yes Carillo makes a "gun bored" model of conn rods, for about $50 more a piece, but they don't really spray the underside of piston crown per-se. They actually send oil up to the wrist pin bearing of the piston, and essentially as an aside sling oil out the bearing up top, and yes some will get on the underside of the piston. But it's not enough to get excited about.

 

Further, all the new Guzzis he's seen do not have the crank bearing drilled to feed oil to these rods anyway, so if one wanted to use these rods and their additional oiling, one would have to get the bearing drilled. This is not a big deal, but just something else to have to do.

 

And, he said that he's seen some issues with these rods as opposed to "standard" Carillos, at least on race motors. But on a street bike, they'd probably be fine.

 

Bottom line, he didn't see any real advantage in spending the extra $$ on the gun bored rods. One might see a little more wrist pin life, but probably nothing significant, especially by the time one had enough high-mileage on a bike to matter... you'd rebuild it anyway.

 

al

[Guest John T]

I heard that some people are complaining about the noise the clutch makes while in neutral with the clutch out. Some people think it is bad and have dealers replace them. This is a case for "they all sound like that"

 

I think a bad batch showed up on some of the EV tourers. Hey, I'm sure some do go bad. (have you seen how some people ride though?)

 

My first 2000 sport had the dual disc set up and it blew at 4000 miles. My replacement clutch was weak and I could get it to slip. I heard that a remedy for slipping (new) clutches is to replace the springs with the ones off the cruiser line. They are stiffer than the ones on the sports but only use 8 instead of 10.

There is a 2000 sport at my dealer with a blown clutch. (dual disc,rivets sheared)

So guess what? Clutches do blow up!

Mine looked perfect at 6000 miles when apart and now has an additional 2000 hard miles with over 90hp going through it. Splines looked fine also and I gave them a very thin coating of moly grease.

 

To do a clutch job on a spine frame is very easy (6 speeder) Just drop the tranny from the rear and replace, no biggie.

 

Clutches are consumables so I figure I'll be replacing them at some time down the road.

 

Time will tell, but all seems fine now.