belfastguzzi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Yes, Ratchetwhack. Illuminating to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 ....http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/RakeEx/RakeEx.htm .... Thanks for the link. I've been looking for his name since some time now. He developed an interesting frame concept Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 snip.... All that stuff is not usually an issue on street unless you have messed up big time... That's one of the reasons why I want a steering damper. Not because the frame is red. The red frame has nothing to do with why I think dampers are a good idea on ANY motorcycle. I'll take my damper off and I am sure nine out of ten riders will find my Red framed V11 to be more stable 'feeling' than a stock Marzocchi equipped 'long' frame with no damper. The main reasons to put a damper on are: I make mistakes, like getting airborne at 120MPH. I don't have Greg Fields magic touch Grooves in the road, construction, etc. $#^+ happens What can happen at over 100MPH, especially when combined with Groves in the road and my ability to make mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlaing Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Frankly and honestly? No. That stuff is just all "silly banter." What will get this thread closed is the "you're so stupid" . . . and "duh, ain't you a twit" and "if you had a clue and one oar you could at least go in circles" kind of language. <_>So why are you yellow flagging me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I don't know why we all get hung up on the frame color. I did because that seemed to be the fashion in this discussion, when it is actually meaningless to the discussion. All the pre-LeMans V11 Sports use the same frame (except that the Rosso Mandello's is coated black). What is meaningful is a discussion of triple clamps. Early (to frame 113032) bikes used triple clamps with 1/2 degree steeper rake. It is these that show the greatest tendency to instability, though even the later ones sometimes do, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 So why are you yellow flagging me? I didn't mean to point the finger at anyone, although I was probably responding to your post at the time. I was just pointing out that when these posts degrade into our opinions of one another, rather than our opinion on the topic, the threads seem to get closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I don't know why we all get hung up on the frame color. I did because that seemed to be the fashion in this discussion, when it is actually meaningless to the discussion. All the pre-LeMans V11 Sports use the same frame (except that the Rosso Mandello's is coated black). What is meaningful is a discussion of triple clamps. Early (to frame 113032) bikes used triple clamps with 1/2 degree steeper rake. It is these that show the greatest tendency to instability, though even the later ones sometimes do, too. Please elaborate, Greg. I thought the earlier (often referred to as red frame) V11 Sports had a 1 degree steeper head angle. Is this a separate change to the steeper steering head angle and is this 1/2 degree really in the clamps and not the steering stem? And is there a change in trail to go along with this? And are you saying that all pre LeMans V11s use the same frame, that the black ones and the red ones both have the same head angle? I was under the impression that the color actually meant something and that the red fame bikes were different to the others. If this is not true that is very interesting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 ........ I was just pointing out that when these posts degrade into our opinions of one another, rather than our opinion on the topic, the threads seem to get closed Yup, always true here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Please elaborate, Greg. I thought the earlier (often referred to as red frame) V11 Sports had a 1 degree steeper head angle. Is this a separate change to the steeper steering head angle and is this 1/2 degree really in the clamps and not the steering stem? And is there a change in trail to go along with this? And are you saying that all pre LeMans V11s use the same frame, that the black ones and the red ones both have the same head angle? I was under the impression that the color actually meant something and that the red fame bikes were different to the others. If this is not true that is very interesting to me. I'm pretty damn sure the steering angle on the frame was unchanged from beginning through the last pre-LeMans bike. All red-colored frames have the same part number. The part number was changed for the Rosso Mandello because it is coated black. The angle change was made in the triple clamps at the frame number listed earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'm pretty damn sure the steering angle on the frame was unchanged from beginning through the last pre-LeMans bike. All red-colored frames have the same part number. The part number was changed for the Rosso Mandello because it is coated black. The angle change was made in the triple clamps at the frame number listed earlier. I believe there have been some pics posted showing the difference in the frames between early "red frame" bikes and the later ones. There was a easily seen difference between the two. But what I am curious about is are all red frames the same and all black frames the same. I was under the impression that all red frames as well as the black frame from the RM were the same 25 degree rake and all the other black frame bikes were the 26 degree rake. I don't know if trail changed and by how much. Most of my experience is with the early bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I believe all red frames and the black one from the RM are the same. The early red-frames had different triple clamps, though, with 1/2 degree steeper rake. So far as I know, the LeMans-on frame has the same rake as the red-frame, but was stretched. I'm not 100 percent sure that the rake was not changed, but I have never seen a primary source definitively saying that it was, so I choose not to assume it was changed just because everybody says it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 FWIW, the factory engineering drawing in the Guzzi service manual for the short frame Sport shows a spine to steering head angle of 88 degrees, 30 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I believe all red frames and the black one from the RM are the same. The early red-frames had different triple clamps, though, with 1/2 degree steeper rake. So far as I know, the LeMans-on frame has the same rake as the red-frame, but was stretched. I'm not 100 percent sure that the rake was not changed, but I have never seen a primary source definitively saying that it was, so I choose not to assume it was changed just because everybody says it was. I have not measured the steering head on either bike but from the pics posted in another thread the two frames are substantially different. It is possible to add or subtract rake in the clamps but it is not a common way for a manufacturer to do it. I would be surprised if that is how Guzzi did it but Guzzi have surprised me before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 FWIW, the factory engineering drawing in the Guzzi service manual for the short frame Sport shows a spine to steering head angle of 88 degrees, 30 minutes. The diagram in one I have shows 25 degrees from horizontal. I'm sure if that's the same a 88:30 or not, but that's what my manual shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 The diagram in one I have shows 25 degrees from horizontal. I'm sure if that's the same a 88:30 or not, but that's what my manual shows. Shows 25 degrees from vertical on mine , but you need a magnifying glass to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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