V11 suspension setup

[GuzziMoto]

Much! Didn't make any sense the 1st time thru...

 

Still, I wish you wouldn't use the term "race sag." You've got unladen sag & laden sag: no racing involved. But that's just me!

Okay.... If you thought it made more sense when too much static sag (free sag) after setting your race sag meant you needed stiffer springs.....

As far as the term "race sag", I did not make it up. It is the correct term.

As for Marzzochi forks, MV Augusta uses them for the same reason Guzzi does. They are Italian. They are not in the same league as Ohlins. That does not mean they are bad forks, but Ohlins are better. Ohlins tend to work smoother with less stiction and have better valving then others. And the valving is more easily adjustable/configurable by suspension guys then most stock forks. But a set of Zokes that are fully adjustable and have been set up for your weight and riding style could work as well or better then a set of Ohlins that are just generically set up. Getting the forks set up for you is as important as who made them in my opinion.

[felix42o]

Many thanks for the info.it's been a great help.I certainly understand far more now than I did before.I'll just have to put into practice now.

I haven't had my forks set up by anyone yet as I bought a set of Ohlins from a dealer and am still deciding which bike to fit them to.I was intending to put them on the LeMan as thats the one I'm messing about with the engine tuning on, but then got to thinking that I'm sure if correctly set up the Marzo. forks would be equally as good as the ohlins. I came to this conclusion by ogling the new MV Agusta's at my local dealer when I noticed them all fitted with Marzo's.

I can then put the ohlins on the Rosso Mandello- I thought the gold colour would best suit the R.M's paint scheme{as well as adding to the handling of course}

Anyone got any thoughts vis Marzo against Ohlin?

 

Andy.

 

My thought is just that I'm envious you have to decide which V11 to fit your Ohlins suspension to.

Otherwise, the Marz forks seem fine to me once set up properly, and I hear the Ohlins are a little harder on fork seals. I'm sure others will chime in on this.

[raz]

I hear the Ohlins are a little harder on fork seals. I'm sure others will chime in on this.

From what I've gathered this is just the downside of having less stiction so it's not a problem with the forks per se. You can replace the seals with ones that last longer, but they will have more stiction. There is no such thing as a free lunch... Conversely, I reckon you could find seals to other forks that decreases stiction - and service life.

[Trippy]

 

Backing up completely on all settings and tightening the rear spring (I almost turned it way down) to get a bit more weight to the front is step 1 (amazing transformation

 

 

After much head scratching, reading and fiddling I think I maybe getting somewhere.

 

Rider (me) average ability and 16 stone (slightly above average).

 

I set the front compression at 4 clicks back from max +.

The front rebound 6 clicks back from max +.

It feels ok.

 

On the rear I have set rebound screw A at the top of the shock at 20 clicks back from max +.

The compression at 10 back from max +.

 

My question is regarding the rear spring preload and the quote above and may seem like a silly one. The adjustable rings at the bottom of the shock were quite a way up and I backed them down incresing the sag when I sat on it to about 35mm.

In the quote above he refers to tightening the rear spring which I would understand as screwing the rings upwards thus reducing the sag when I sit on the bike, is that right? Because I seem to acheived a better result by going in the other direction.

 

Sorry if this is all very old hat, boring and I come across as a complete idiot but asking questions and fiddling is the only way to learn.

[Tom M]

My :

At 16 stone you are close to me in weight. I found the stock 2002 Marzocchi fork springs were too weak for me at about .83kg/mm. I suggest that you might be better off with a set of 1.0kg/mm springs (I went with 1.05). I used 18 - 24mm unladen or free sag and 30 - 42mm laden or race sag as my targets.

 

I have an Ohlins rear shock with a 100N/mm spring on the rear and it works well for me. I don't know what the stock rear spring is but I'm pretty sure it's softer than mine. I think you should be looking for 5 - 10mm free sag and 30 - 40mm race sag at the rear if my old notes are correct. Assuming the stock spring is soft you probably want to be on the low side of those numbers. If you have 35mm sag with your full weight on the bike that should be a good starting point.

 

The preload adjuster for the stock rear shock is at the top and the rebound damping adjuster is at the bottom. If your preload adjuster is at the bottom by the swingarm either your shock is upside down or you have an aftermarket shock.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Tom M

[raz]

I have an Ohlins rear shock with a 10N/mm spring on the rear and it works well for me. I don't know what the stock rear spring is but I'm pretty sure it's softer than mine.

My 1100 Sport has a 90N/mm (stock) rear spring. Linkage ratios seem to be about the same as V11. Maybe you mean 100N/mm? Or 10 kg/mm perhaps.

[Tom M]

My 1100 Sport has a 90N/mm (stock) rear spring. Linkage ratios seem to be about the same as V11. Maybe you mean 100N/mm? Or 10 kg/mm perhaps.

 

Oops you got me Raz. I have the Ohlins 1091-34 spring which according to this is 100N/mm = 10.19KG/mm = 571 inch lbs. I'll edit the post above!

[GuzziMoto]

The stock spring for a non-Ohlins V11 as measured by Penske was 500 in/lbs. That equates to 87.5N/mm.

[GuzziMoto]

After much head scratching, reading and fiddling I think I maybe getting somewhere.

 

Rider (me) average ability and 16 stone (slightly above average).

 

I set the front compression at 4 clicks back from max +.

The front rebound 6 clicks back from max +.

It feels ok.

 

On the rear I have set rebound screw A at the top of the shock at 20 clicks back from max +.

The compression at 10 back from max +.

 

My question is regarding the rear spring preload and the quote above and may seem like a silly one. The adjustable rings at the bottom of the shock were quite a way up and I backed them down incresing the sag when I sat on it to about 35mm.

In the quote above he refers to tightening the rear spring which I would understand as screwing the rings upwards thus reducing the sag when I sit on the bike, is that right? Because I seem to acheived a better result by going in the other direction.

 

Sorry if this is all very old hat, boring and I come across as a complete idiot but asking questions and fiddling is the only way to learn.

 

As mentioned, the preload rings should be on the top, chassis side of the stock shock. The quote about increasing the rear preload to get more weight on the front end is a common idea. It has limits on how far you can go and it is not just a matter of moving weight, but the idea is somewhat sound. If you want to try that, you may want to learn more about motorcycle geometry and how it works. The best way to go in my opinion is to adjust your preload based on rider weight, confirm that your spring rates are correct by then checking sag without the rider on board, then maybe make some small adjustments to the preload to fine tune the behavior of the bike.

Your 35mm of sag is not bad, but if you check to see what your sag is without anyone on board it will give you more info. You should have 5-10mm of riderless (free) sag when your sag with rider on board (race sag) is correct. If after adjusting your race sag you have too much free sag then your springs are too stiff and if you do not have enough then your springs are too soft.

I prefer closer to 25mm of race sag and 5-10mm of free sag, but that can be part of the fine tuning once you are in the ball park. Running less race sag does not mean a stiffer ride as so many seem to think. Increasing the preload on a straight rate spring does not change the spring rate. Adding preload changes the ride height. Increasing the ride height increases the available suspension travel. Changing the balance of the ride height front to back affects the geometry and behavior of the bike.

[Trippy]

 

Backing up completely on all settings and tightening the rear spring (I almost turned it way down) to get a bit more weight to the front is step 1 (amazing transformation

 

Sorted. I had gone the wrong way lowering the arse end which strangly made it feel better than having it somewhere in the middle. This morning I have whacked up the spring on the back end to about 80% and taken it out for a quick blast. Much much better.

 

Thanks.

[neophyte]

I decided to dive in and make changes to my Öhlins shod 04 café sport.

 

I zeroed out (to full hard) each setting, then to see how many actual clicks I went all the way back to "full soft".

 

Front: Compression +3 clicks from _full soft_ ; Rebound +7 clicks from _full soft_ . I counted about 28 clicks of adjustment available.

Rear: Compression +12 from _full soft_ ; Rebound +24 from _full soft_ (didn't write down how many total clicks available).

 

Handling felt less sharp and a little "tippy" feeling....but the ride home was at least not tiring for once.

 

Have not adjust "race sag", or ride height with preload yet.

[Scottie]

The quote below discussing spring rates says if you have MORE than 10mm of static sag then you may need stiffer springs (e.g.: your springs are too SOFT). If you have LESS than 5mm or zero static sag, then your springs are too hard for your weight.

 

They were not saying the same thing Although they are misleading...

 

Regarding free sag, very little free sag (unladen) is indicative of either too much pre-load (meaning your spring is too soft) or too little pre-load on too stiff a spring (typically much too stiff) or too LONG a spring (which has happened on bikes such as the new Ducati Superbikes).

 

In essence your unladen free sag should simply exist to put the spring in tension, and then to adjust your rider sag to where you want it. If you are at either extreme on your pre-load settings, you need a different spring. Too much pre-load, you need a stiffer spring. Too little or no pre-load, you need a softer spring.

 

I have run almost all my "sport" bikes 35-40mm of rider / laden sag (10-15mm free) in the front, and 25-30mm rider sag (5-10mm free) in the rear.

 

Damping (compression or rebound) does not affect overall travel per-se, but it affects the amount of time it takes for your fork or shock to travel through it's stroke. That's why it's proper to think "Fast" and "Slow" when making damping adjustments, not "Hard" and "Soft" as seems to be the norm (and even put on the clickers by some manufacturers?!). A very SLOW damping rate (turned full IN) will result in a bike that does not move or react quickly to bumps or inputs and will FEEL "hard."

 

For anyone getting into fiddling with your own suspensions, do yourself a favor and buy this book:

 

Sportbike Suspension Tuning by Andrew Trevitt. It is the best introduction to what your suspension is, how it works, and how to adjust it that I have yet found.

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

 

That is not a bad beginners guide, but there is an error in the part about sag vs spring rate.

"Once you have set your rider sag as close as possible to 30-40 mm, next check your static sag. If you have more than 10mm then you may need stiffer springs. If however, if your static sag is less than 5mm or you have no static sag then your springs may be too hard for your weight. "

 

Both scenarios say your springs are too stiff. It should say if you have too much static sag then you need softer springs. If you do not have enough then you need stiffer springs.

 

"Rider" sag is also called "race" sag.

Also worth pointing out is that preload does not effect spring rate unless you have progressive springs. Adding or subtracting preload with normal straight rate springs does not change the "softness" of the spring.

 

 

So, you say that if my bike drops too much, I should change to SOFTER? Not in my lifetime, not!

No, that is not what I said. I said that when checking you free sag (how much the bike sags without the rider on board), after you have set your race sag (how much the bike sags WITH the rider on board), that if you have too much free sag then you need softer springs. This is telling you that in order to get you race sag where you wanted it you had to back off your preload too much because your springs are too stiff. If you don't have enough free sag that is saying you had to add too much preload to get the race sag where you wanted it because your springs are too soft.

I hope this is clearer to you.

[neophyte]

"most" quick-connect couplings push toward each other then slide off the attached part. Try it very easily before jerking and cussing.

Well I still don't understand how to get the coupling off of the fittings. I push one way then the other with my fingers gently/firmly forward and back..it doesn't move (the gray/white collar). am I tooo mechanically stupid to own this bike? Any advice?