Tom M Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I seem to have a bit of a dead spot in my starter. Over the last year or so about 1 in 10 times that I try to start the bike I will hear the starter gear engage but the engine won't turn over. At this point I know that if I hold the button down for more than 3 or 4 seconds without the engine turning over it will cook the fuse so I let up then hit it again for a couple seconds. After two or three more tries the engine will suddenly turn over and fire up. Last winter I followed the forum's advice and opened up the solenoid and made sure it was clean and the slug was moving freely so I'm pretty sure that the problem isn't there. I replaced the battery this past Spring and the starting problem remained so I really think the issue is with the starter. Is there anything I can do with it other than buy a replacement? If I do have to replace it does anyone have any experience with the non-Valeo starters that are available from EME or on ebay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Take the whole starter apart, it's a one beer job. Descriptions are linked somewhere around here, among others there's an excellent beemer forum article about it. Actually the only instruction you need is that you can pry those small rivets apart like they're not there, and you don't need to replace them afterwards. Some have found the permanent magnets let go from its glue. That's fixable (at least worth a try - if you get it right it will be better than a new Valeo). Others have had success just cleaning it. I cleaned mine and beefed up the ground straps and haven't had a problem since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 It sounds more like the starter's solenoid rather than the starter motor. My Breva 750 is showing similar symptoms also. It's a common problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I agree with Cliff but you said you checked the Solenoid already. But this made me think of another thing: The Starter Relay must be capable of a tremendous current rush on the NO contacts when the solenoid is activated. While most people seem to have better success with GEI relays than with the Siemens ones, the GEI's are actually speced for only half that inrush current. I currently use a stock Siemens relay for that one while my other ones are GEI. If I ever replace them again I will use Omrons all over. Did you try the never ending relay round robin dance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I seem to have a bit of a dead spot in my starter. Over the last year or so about 1 in 10 times that I try to start the bike I will hear the starter gear engage but the engine won't turn over. At this point I know that if I hold the button down for more than 3 or 4 seconds without the engine turning over it will cook the fuse so I let up then hit it again for a couple seconds. After two or three more tries the engine will suddenly turn over and fire up. Last winter I followed the forum's advice and opened up the solenoid and made sure it was clean and the slug was moving freely so I'm pretty sure that the problem isn't there. I replaced the battery this past Spring and the starting problem remained so I really think the issue is with the starter. Is there anything I can do with it other than buy a replacement? If I do have to replace it does anyone have any experience with the non-Valeo starters that are available from EME or on ebay? Your starter (when it is not turning) has no EMF and or CEMF and becomes a short to ground and cooks the fuse. You can disassemble the starter yourself (you will probably not be able to see anything wrong)or contact a starter rebuilder in your area & see if he will repair it for you. You could ask if he will let you watch & give you a tutorial on what he is doing,why and explain how things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I seem to have a bit of a dead spot in my starter. Over the last year or so about 1 in 10 times that I try to start the bike I will hear the starter gear engage but the engine won't turn over. At this point I know that if I hold the button down for more than 3 or 4 seconds without the engine turning over it will cook the fuse so I let up then hit it again for a couple seconds. After two or three more tries the engine will suddenly turn over and fire up. Last winter I followed the forum's advice and opened up the solenoid and made sure it was clean and the slug was moving freely so I'm pretty sure that the problem isn't there. I replaced the battery this past Spring and the starting problem remained so I really think the issue is with the starter. Is there anything I can do with it other than buy a replacement? If I do have to replace it does anyone have any experience with the non-Valeo starters that are available from EME or on ebay? The fuse is blowing with the no-start condition because the starter has no EMF* nor is it generating CEMF** and thus it becomes a 0 resistance circuit and blows the fuse. Everything is working to the point it is getting to the motor part of the starter. You can disassemble the starter but (might) not see anything wrong. If there is a starter rebuilder in your area contact him to see if he can help. Ask him if he will repair it and let you watch. Please explain you just want him to explain what is being done, why and "theory of operation" of the starter. He will probably be happy to help and feel good that someone simply "wants to know" ....... *Electromotive Force **Counter Electromotive Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The fuse is blowing with the no-start condition because the starter has no EMF* nor is it generating CEMF** and thus it becomes a 0 resistance circuit and blows the fuse. Everything is working to the point it is getting to the motor part of the starter. You can disassemble the starter but (might) not see anything wrong. If there is a starter rebuilder in your area contact him to see if he can help. Ask him if he will repair it and let you watch. Please explain you just want him to explain what is being done, why and "theory of operation" of the starter. He will probably be happy to help and feel good that someone simply "wants to know" ....... *Electromotive Force **Counter Electromotive Force There are some snippets of truth here but many errors. True there is no back EMF from the stationary motor but the resistance is not zero. I've seen 300A quoted for these starter motors so the resistance is V/I ~1/30 ohm. This circuit is not fused. The solenoid is a capable of switching this 300A and thus requires the order of 10A to operate. This is probably fused but there is no reason this should blow the fuse except for an incorrectly chosen fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldButNotDead Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 There are some snippets of truth here but many errors. I believe I have just learned the secret to life. Thank you Cliff. I've installed a starter from EME; worked for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The solenoid inside the starter has two coils. one has a resistance of only 0.3 Ohms (12/.3 = 40 Amps) but that's only for the split second that it takes for the gears to engage then the current drops to about 6 Amps. Your symptoms to me sound like either the internal contacts aren't making or there's a bad connection on the main wire from the battery to the starter. I would check the battery connection first, remove the wires and scrape the lead terminal until it shows nice clean metal then coat the connection with petroleum jelly aka vaseline. Do the same with the main connection to starter. If that doesn't fix it something must be preventing the internal contacts from closing. When you press the start button the start relay energizes the heavy winding (0.3 Ohm) in series with the starter armature. This heavy current creates a strong magnetic field to pull the starter gear into engagement. Once engaged the main solenoid contacts now supply +12 Volts to the armature and the negative end of the heavy coil. Since both ends of the heavy coil are now at 12 Volts it no longer pulls 40 amps through the starter relay and it's 15 amp fuse F5. The solenoid is held in place by a lighter coil which only draws 6 amps (less magnetic field is required to hold the gear in place). If the contacts in the solenoid are unable to supply 12 Volts to the armature the heavy coil continues to pull high current through the starter relay and the fuse pops. Sorry if my explanation is not very clear, I can post a sketch if that helps. BTW the fact that your fuse pops tells me the brushes are connecting with the armature. The relays are rated about 60 amps inrush so the initial surge is OK See note 6 of attached Hope this helps Roy Test Point Layout.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The relays are rated about 60 amps inrush so the initial surge is OK According to Ryland3210, that is true for stock relays and Omrons, but not GEI. They are only 25A inrush. They will work fine but you will never know for how long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 I am using the GEI relays but hadn't considered the relay to be a problem since the starter gear is engaging the flywheel. Am I wrong there? When I took the solenoid apart last year it was in good shape. I cleaned it up and added a slight bit of grease on the walls of the tube to prevent rust. It seems to me that it's working fine before & after I went in there. I cleaned, greased and tightened all electrical connections on the starter when I reinstalled it and the symptoms didn't change. I only popped a fuse once by holding down the starter button when the engine wouldn't turn over. After that never held the button down beyond 4 seconds when it was refusing to turn over for fear of popping another fuse. A few years ago I had a 30 year old garden tractor starter rebuilt for $75 when I couldn't find a new replacement which cost about $120. The rebuilt starter worked OK but not great for about a year then died again. I bought a new one and it worked MUCH better than the old one ever did. Based on that experience I'm more inclined to spend a little extra money for a new unit over a rebuild. OBND, did you go with the Valeo or EnDuralast unit from EME? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Here's a sketch. Provided the power is making it through the contactor the current through the starter relay is less than 10 amps but if it fails to get through as far as the brush the heavy coil will draw too much current and the fuse will pop in no time, see the third sketch. Please note: my sketch may not be 100% correct, I don't have a manual for the starter, this is my best guess from the readings I took and pulling mine apart, so it's close. BTW I was taught not to lubricate the starter sliding parts, just leave them dry or use CRC or something that will not become sticky after an few months, grease in the gearbox is fine of course. I also found this very good article on the Beamer site http://www.airheads.org/content/view/210/98/ I was unable to find a schematic, so I'm going with my sketch for now Starter.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Here's a sketch. Provided the power is making it through the contactor the current through the starter relay is less than 10 amps but if it fails to get through as far as the brush the heavy coil will draw too much current and the fuse will pop in no time, see the third sketch. Please note: my sketch may not be 100% correct, I don't have a manual for the starter, this is my best guess from the readings I took and pulling mine apart, so it's close. BTW I was taught not to lubricate the starter sliding parts, just leave them dry or use CRC or something that will not become sticky after an few months, grease in the gearbox is fine of course. I also found this very good article on the Beamer site http://www.airheads.org/content/view/210/98/ I was unable to find a schematic, so I'm going with my sketch for now Thanks for this Roy. That beemer article might be what I used as a guide when I tried to fix this last year. I'll give it a shot again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 since the starter gear is engaging the flywheel. How do you know this? By the clunk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The fuse is blowing with the no-start condition because the starter has no EMF* nor is it generating CEMF** and thus it becomes a 0 resistance circuit and blows the fuse. Everything is working to the point it is getting to the motor part of the starter. You can disassemble the starter but (might) not see anything wrong. If there is a starter rebuilder in your area contact him to see if he can help. Ask him if he will repair it and let you watch. Please explain you just want him to explain what is being done, why and "theory of operation" of the starter. He will probably be happy to help and feel good that someone simply "wants to know" ....... *Electromotive Force **Counter Electromotive Force There are some snippets of truth here but many errors. True there is no back EMF from the stationary motor but the resistance is not zero. I've seen 300A quoted for these starter motors so the resistance is V/I ~1/30 ohm. This circuit is not fused. The solenoid is a capable of switching this 300A and thus requires the order of 10A to operate. This is probably fused but there is no reason this should blow the fuse except for an incorrectly chosen fuse. Take you ohm meter and see what you come up with. BTW I am not going to get in a pissing contest with you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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