Charge and Neutral lights when hot

[AndyH]

There's a few posts about problems with hot running about town but I haven't seen the symptoms I describe below mentioned anywhere, hence a new topic.

 

I took my V11 into the City of London today through rush hour heavy traffic in order to get to a meeting.

 

After stop/go at countless lights, waiting in traffic queues because I couldn't get through, and then searching around in vain for bike park, the engine was getting really hot (and it is no way near summer here, the air's quite chilly still!).

 

That's when it started playing up. First the charge light started coming on at tickover (at least it ticked over!). If I blipped, the charge light went out but came back just above tickover. I switched off the headlamp but that didn't seem to help.

 

Then the Neutral light started glowing even when not in neutral: then it was on all the time in any gear indistinguishable from Neutral. The engine was getting quite grumpy, popping a bit and running lumpy and it was with some relief that I finally got it into a bike park and wondered if it would start again when time to go.

 

Two hours later after the meeting, cold engine, it started up and behaved impeccably in the rather lighter traffic and there seem to be no lasting ill effects.

 

What's going on here?

Is the hot engine breaking the Neutral light insulation down perhaps?

What about the poor charging at tickover?

 

Sound familiar to anyone?

 

Andy H

[Bbennett]

I sometimes have same "issue' but I just ignore it. I do not correlate it with engine temp, I think it is more a function of low RPM.

 

And I do not know what causes the false positives on the nuetral and out of fuel lights.

[GraeV11]

There's a few posts about problems with hot running about town but I haven't seen the symptoms I describe below mentioned anywhere, hence a new topic.

 

I took my V11 into the City of London today through rush hour heavy traffic in order to get to a meeting.

 

After stop/go at countless lights, waiting in traffic queues because I couldn't get through, and then searching around in vain for bike park, the engine was getting really hot (and it is no way near summer here, the air's quite chilly still!).

 

That's when it started playing up. First the charge light started coming on at tickover (at least it ticked over!). If I blipped, the charge light went out but came back just above tickover. I switched off the headlamp but that didn't seem to help.

 

Then the Neutral light started glowing even when not in neutral: then it was on all the time in any gear indistinguishable from Neutral. The engine was getting quite grumpy, popping a bit and running lumpy and it was with some relief that I finally got it into a bike park and wondered if it would start again when time to go.

 

Two hours later after the meeting, cold engine, it started up and behaved impeccably in the rather lighter traffic and there seem to be no lasting ill effects.

 

What's going on here?

Is the hot engine breaking the Neutral light insulation down perhaps?

What about the poor charging at tickover?

 

Sound familiar to anyone?

 

Andy H

Good quality 20/50 oil makes a difference to the engine's behaviour when hot. The light display is a special Guzzi 'feature', usually means 'Italian'. :grin:

[savagehenry]

Alot of issues when bike is running hot can be due to valve clearances. What do you set them at? Looser is better on these bikes, I run .008 and .010 intake and exhaust, myself.

[mznyc]

Ive ignored electrical quirks before on other bikes in the past only to have them bite me in the most inopportune place/time.Personally,I wont do that again,but if you dont care,......

 

You have to see what kind of volts the system is putting out.

Check cold-battery after sitting overnight

Check at idle

Check 3-5k

Go for a ride for 15-20 mins,no stops if possible(wouldnt go too far,or go with a friend) then check volts

What cha got?

[GuzziMoto]

Both the charge light and the oil pressure light have been know to come on at idle when the idle it too low. That can be for a number of reasons (the low idle when hot) but one reason is valves that re too tight. Many people find their V11's do better with looser clearances then the factory recommended settings. Raceco recommended settings are my preference.

[AndyH]

Raceco recommended settings are my preference.

 

Which are...?

[mznyc]

15mm/.006" intake, .2mm/.008" exhaust

[AndyH]

15mm/.006" intake, .2mm/.008" exhaust

OK thanks...

The manual says "0,10 mm" and "0,15 mm" which is like .004" and .006" which all sounded way too low when I did them so I did set them a bit looser (can't remember what I used) so I'm probably around that. Maybe for town work I need to go even looser as savagehenry suggests.

 

I've learnt by now you can't really trust the manual all the time. Otherwise I'd have a shed full of used and new shafts for replacement every 20K (the lube interval is the same as replacement)!!

 

AndyH

[AndyH]

Update on this issue, and a question:

 

The charging light was coming on increasingly frequently at tickover when the bike was hot, so all was clearly not well.

 

Last Saturday I set out for a trip to West Wales (about 250 miles): invitation to mishap really:

 

Shortly after setting off the headlight stopped working, the side light continued to work...

Then the brake light stopped...

Then indicators...

Then after 15 miles the engine.

 

The RAC rescue came after about 40 mins (luckily on a holiday weekend), started the bike with a jump and tested the voltage across the battery: charging fine initially (~13.8V) then as the engine warmed again it dropped gradually to just over 12V. I got back home under my own steam escorted by the RAC Van but with no lights as it started to chuck down with rain. Reflected my mood really.

 

Conclusion: alternator failure clearly and I've just ordered a replacement Alternator from Stein Dinse but there seems to be a world shortage and just three weeks away from my Highlands tour.

However, could this be a Reg/Rectifier issue as well? I feel that 300 quid for an alternator is one thing but if the Reg is actually part of the cause of the problem I feel I'd better replace that too to be safe. Any suggestions?

 

Andy H

[Tom M]

The regulators seem to fail far more often than the alternators on these bikes. The alternator test is pretty easy. There are lots of threads here on how to test the alternator and the regulator but I don't have my links to them handy right now. A search should find lots of them.

 

Here's some of the alternator test info from the Workshop manual pg 408. If your alternator is putting out the AC volts below when the bike isn't charging correctly it's OK and your reg is bad.

 

"CHECK THE VOLTAGE OUTPUT

Connect an alternate 200 Volt capacity voltmeter to the

two yellow cables.

Start the motor and check that the voltage output is

included within the values indicated on the following tables:

r.p.m. 1000 3000 6000

A.C. volts 15 40 80"

[Kiwi_Roy]

I don't know why the neutral light is coming on unless you are riding in the rain and it's tracking across.

 

As for the charge light it's crucial to have a good ground on the regulator. Just take about 8 inches of wire and run it from the regulator case to an engine bolt.

Trust me, the tiny wire the factory provided has too much resistance.

 

Sometimes one of the diodes inside the regulator lets go but try the grounding first.

[AndyH]

The regulators seem to fail far more often than the alternators on these bikes. The alternator test is pretty easy. There are lots of threads here on how to test the alternator and the regulator but I don't have my links to them handy right now. A search should find lots of them.

 

Here's some of the alternator test info from the Workshop manual pg 408. If your alternator is putting out the AC volts below when the bike isn't charging correctly it's OK and your reg is bad.

 

"CHECK THE VOLTAGE OUTPUT

Connect an alternate 200 Volt capacity voltmeter to the

two yellow cables.

Start the motor and check that the voltage output is

included within the values indicated on the following tables:

r.p.m. 1000 3000 6000

A.C. volts 15 40 80"

Ok Will try that...

[AndyH]

I don't know why the neutral light is coming on unless you are riding in the rain and it's tracking across.

 

As for the charge light it's crucial to have a good ground on the regulator. Just take about 8 inches of wire and run it from the regulator case to an engine bolt.

Trust me, the tiny wire the factory provided has too much resistance.

 

Sometimes one of the diodes inside the regulator lets go but try the grounding first.

Neutral light problem hasn't repeated so I put that down to temporary failure of the laws of physics.

 

The grounding wire was on the agenda anyway: I'm planning to put in a main grounding backbone cable from the headlamp to tail with lines to all major components. It's worked for me before with old Brits (and old cars) where the chassis/bodywork connections were none too sure because of rust and vibes.

 

Andy

[Kiwi_Roy]

Andy,

It will take you 5 minutes to add a ground to the regulator.

The regulator is bolted to the horn bracket, the horn bracket to the chassis and neither have been prepared to act as a ground. Over the past 12 years I'm sure the connection through this nefarious path on your bike has deteriorated somewhat.

The factory provides a small black wire, I think it goes all the way back to the battery but this is way too small for the heavy current flowing.

(the Positive wire is quite fat with a 30 Amp fuse so why does Luigi think all that current can get back through a tiny black wire?)

 

Actually the ground wire is even more important for the following

The regulator doesn't regulate the battery voltage directly, all it does is look at the Voltage between it's black wire (of the black white pair) and it's case

If this Voltage is

if the Voltage > 13.8 turn the charging Off

So you can see if there is a resistance in the ground, even 0.2 Ohms the Voltage drop at 30 Amps (0.2 x 30 = 6) gives the regulator a false idea of where the battery is at charge wise. You could loose several Volts in the positive wire and it would have almost no effect.

Just run a short wire from a holding bolt to one of the timing cover screws, the engine is a better path than any copper wire. Scrape the metal and add a bit of grease to prevent corrosion.

 

Also, if you have a multimeter with a diode test range check between each of the regulator yellow to red wires, both should read ~0.5 Volts, if one is open circuit you only get half the available charging.

 

And finally, take the plastic cover off your alternator and inspect where the yellow wires are soldered to the coils, they break off there sometimes. The alternator is a very simple device, unless you see obvious sign of burning don't replace it and expect a fix.