V11 Lemans fuel-ignition problem

[Strift_daddy]

Hello Guzzistas,

 

I have a v11 le mans 2002 with 32.000km and the last month i've been trying to get it work right,

unfortunately with no good results (enough).

I have post another topic complaining about the low end of my v11, finally i go to Raceco valve specs and the bike work fine, but it seems i have another complain too.

 

My nightmare began when the first hot day arrives.

(35 degrees of celcium,and it's only Spring in Greece).

After 10-12 km the bike start running like hell. As you notice it's a 2002 model so it was the classic fuel pump problem. I relocate the fuel pump and remove the filter box (something i really don't like). I install pods, and then my dead end begins...With the agostini exhaust and with the pods the bike

was running really poor.

I then install my pcIII,I was trying to calibrate the throttle but i couldn't. My tps was failed (i don't know why,it looks like a coincidence).

I change it and unplug the pcIII. Then i go to my mechanical in order to fix the ''poor'' thing.

We plug the bike to Ducati Mathesis diagnostic tool. We change the tps angle from 3,3 to 4,6. I go for a ride and the bike was a dream, but when it was hot and i violently open the throttle i heard the bike ticking over (or pitting) i don't know how to say it in English. Still poor was my though, go back and change to mixture from -29co (from factory i think) to -19. Even better, but when it was hot and hardly accelerated from 5.000rpm to 6.000rpm i heard that thicking noise again. Still poor i though again. Go back and go from -19 to -9.

Even better, but when hot, i heard that noise from 4.000rpm to 5.000rpm. Go back again, i think my mechanic wants to kill me, and go from -9 to 0. Too rich the bike was running like on one cylinder but STILL, still this F***ing noise... So my though is the ignition timing.

Is there any way to chance the ingnition angle (advanced it or retarded ?) or the ignition map?

Any ideas how to fix this problem?

 

Please any help will be appreciated,

Keep Guzzing

[mznyc]

Check for air leaks.All connections.Headers,mufflers and particularly TB rubber boots.They tend to crack and will make a good running bike run like shite right quick.

[moto fugazzi]

Check out this topic: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17865

 

The "pitting" noise your talking about-does it sound like someone is shaking a spray paint can? Normally called pinging or pre-detonation.

I've been going thru the same thing as you. Here's what I did: I put the stock airbox back on ( it used to have pods, then I tried an open airbox). 2 weeks ago, I took my bike to my dealer, and he set the TPS to 3.6, balanced throttle bodies, and used a CO2 meter in the tailpipe to set the level at 4.0 using the "fuel trim" level on his Guzzi software. Mine is set at +11 and the bike runs great, aside from a little pinging at 3k RPM. My dealer also adjusted the TB linkage because it was binding a little on the ball socket side.

After all of this was done, my bike runs great, and I'm getting 39MPG (up from mid 30's).

 

The power commander won't do you much good unless you take the bike in for a custom map. You might get close with some of their pre made maps, but all bikes are different.

 

Ken

[Strift_daddy]

Hmmm... yes pre-detonation sounds right.

It sounds like the piston rings hits the sides of the cylinder.

Unfortunately, i can't put back the airbox, i wish i could, because the fuel pump is mounted there at the moment.

The think that makes me go crazy is that you still have a pinging noise with the airbox on it and with all that efford.

I was wondering about fitting velocity stacks in the pods, some guys here mentioned that it helps.

I feel like there is no solution...

I even thought about carbs... (can't afford it at this time)

[moto fugazzi]

Since you already have the PCIII, why not use that? I'm sure dyno tuning would be cheaper than new carbs. Here's a link to PCIII maps here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1020 Just pick the map that has mods closest to your bike, and give them a try. You can always alter a map where the pinging is giving you problems, but without an AFR meter, you're just guessing at how much to add. Try a little bit of map alteration at a time, and save the newest version on your laptop.

Ken

[HaydnR]

You got rid of the airbox, where did you relocate the air temperature sensor ? Does the oil temperature sensor read ok ?

[fotoguzzi]

did you set the TPS by adjusting it or just screwing in the stop screw which would give you too much fuel.. can you take off the long tubes from the air box to TB and put the pods on the end of them instead of straight on the throttle bodies? if there is room that might help set up better airflow.

[Strift_daddy]

Guys thanks for your interest and your response, i feel like i am not alone...

I mounted the air temp sensor to the spine frame, all sensors working good.

I unscrew the 2 torx screws and rotate the tps... Is there another way to adjust it?

I can't use the original plastic tubes as my pods are 52mm , unless if i cut them, but i'll make new ones from aluminium and polish the inside of the tube...

I still think that fuel is not my problem, the only reason for going pcIII is to make a more precise adjustment,

as i could flood the cylinders with fuel (with mathesis diagnostic) and still hear that sound. 

The thing that has to be adjust in my opinion is the timing... ...i have to advance it or to retard it,

but how is that possible?

In tontis we just had to rotate the distributor... Huhhh...good times...

[fotoguzzi]

I unscrew the 2 torx screws and rotate the tps... Is there another way to adjust it?

 

that's right.. I replaced the torx with hex heads on one of mine in case I lost the torx tool. Have you set a base line tps value with the stop screws all the way out? I think that is 150Mv? then bring up the stop screw to contact then adjust tps to 3.6..

I don't think the timing is adjustable without hacking the computer.

 

are you using premium gas?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Cheap gas will make my V11 ping, get the best you can buy.

[moto fugazzi]

Moving the TPS will change your ignition tables. Maybe changing it to 4.6 at idle has advanced timing too much? I don't know.

Guzzidiag will allow you to alter ignition. http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17865

 

How was the bike running before you removed the airbox? What made you relocate the fuel pump? Did you have issues with the heat, or were you just worried about potential vapor lock problems?

 

Honestly, I would put the airbox back, set TPS to 3.6, and make sure the bike is set up properly. There's a reason they pay the engineers a lot of money to design engines that work properly, then people like me think we can make it run better...then my dealer sets up my bike, and it runs so much better.

Ken

[GuzziMoto]

As fugazzi says, adjusting the TPS move the ignition advance curve. But putting the airbox back on (why did you put the fuel pump there?) would be the way to make the bike run as it should. Without the airbox the bike will never run as well as it did with and it will end up being a compromise. Can you live with the compromise? Maybe, but why would you. I wouldn't.

[fotoguzzi]

from the FI supplement book,

 

WEBER INJECTION-IGNITION SYSTEM

The Model Alfa/N Weber injection-ignition system, in which engine speed and throttle valve position are used to measure the amount of aspirated air, notes the amount of air and meters the fuel accordingly. Other sensors within the system allow the base strategy to be changed under special operating additions. The engine speed and the throttle valve angle allow the optimal ignition advance to be calculated for every operating condition. The amount of air drawn in by each cylinder for each cycle will depend on the air density in the intake air manifold, the unitary displacement and the volumetric efficiency.

Volumetric efficiency is established experimentally on the engine for its entire operational field and this is then programmed in a map in the computer. The injection system is the sequential multi-port type meaning fuel delivery to each cylinder is independent of conditions at the other cylinder. Fuel delivery for one cylinder can occur during the combustion and exhaust phase of the other cylinder. Fuel delivery timing for starting is also in the map in the computer. Ignition is by static induction spark with dwell control in the power module and spark advance curves programmed in the computer.

 

I feel like doing some experimenting with different settings of the TPS

[emry]

 

Volumetric efficiency is established experimentally on the engine for its entire operational field and this is then programmed in a map in the computer.

 

 

I love experiments. Alpha-N is a compromise. You want acceleration - OK, you want fuel economy - OK, sorry "non sia." 

 

Best you can do is tune for different  ranges, run the best gas you will need (normally acceleration, high octane) and tune the ECU as required, not supplied.