al_roethlisberger Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 ...heh, well here's an interesting anecdote. How many times have we all told eachother that the very first thing we should check when we have a problem with the bike, any problem, are the relays? Well, it's a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway for you.... ALWAYS! So, here's my MY testimonial As you may remember, I had this "family event" about 6 weeks ago.... a new baby And frankly, both since the baby arrived, and for a month or two prior, I really haven't been riding the bike(not any significant distance anyway).... after all, I've been a bit busy and preoccupied But in the meantime, I have "tinkered" here and there in the evenings and weekends to wind down and relax. Well, this weekend I decided to button everything up, and get the bike back on the road, which included a quick "shake down" run around the neighborhood to make certain that I hadn't forgotten to hook up anything "critical" So, I'm zipping around the block, low RPM, low speed.... and all seems fine. So I decide to take the bike down a more major street at a bit higher speed. As I ride down the avenue, at about 35mph, all seems fine and the bike is running like a champ. So I slow to make a right turn onto a street that will take me in the general direction of home. As I approach the corner, there are 2 police cruisers and the "paddy wagon"... gumballs flashing like crazy... and as I pass, they all stop to give me the "look". I laugh and shrug to myself as I go by, and mentally "dare" one of them to peel off and pull me over on "General Purpose". To my luck, and admitted relief, the San Jose Gestapo doesn't take the bait, but as I'm running at about 3k RPM about 50 yards past the gendarme, the bike sputters.... bucks.... misses... and just dies. Dead as can be... electrics on and fine, just no go-go. OK I think as I coast to the curb.... this is interesting <_> Fortunately I'm an only a block from the house(which to my credit was the whole point of a very "local" shake-down run ) .... so I wasn't too nonplussed. But as I sat here in the dark hitting the starter a couple times with no result, I was really at a loss as to what I could have forgotten to reattach properly before the ride. I stood there in the dark thinking through the fuel-pump harness mods(via the 2003 tank retrofit), a plugged injector(the tank was off many times, debris in a line??), or maybe one of my dual-output coils was SNAFU'd. But before the thoughts of complex systemic failures took hold too strongly, just on a lark I pulled the seat and yanked the Fuel-Pump and ECU relays, and jammed them back in. Guess what? .... OK, you've probably already figured out the climax to this story just by the revealing title, but YES, the bike started right back up. But even at this point, I couldn't be SURE that was the culprit. After all, my old vapor lock demon had similar traits, so it still could have been something else intermittent that after a few fuel-pump cycles, cleared itself. So I rode the bike home and figured I'd diagnose more in the morning. As an aside, do you know how hard it is to sleep when all the possible failure scenarios are running around in your brain? So, this morning, I put the bike in the driveway, got it warmed up, and noticed right away that at any RPM over around 3k, the bike missed every so often and was generally unhappy. ...not enough to die, or even really be a problem per se, but certainly not ideal. And at one point, the engine died after coming off of a high-RPM roll-on the throttle Well, knowing now that I had a recurring problem, as opposed to a one-off from who-knows-what from the bike sitting a month or two... I can't say whether I was more relieved or not. But at least I had a starting place with the aforementioned relay(s). OK, well cutting to the chase, I soon found out that by wiggling the fuel-pump relay, I could get the engine to stumble and even die. I didn't have to wiggle it much, and after closer inspection it seemed generally more a loose fit than I had remembered. I put in another relay that seemed to fit tighter, and then the 3k RPM stumbles seemed to quit, and the bike would not die even if I tried(reasonably) to wiggle said relay. So here's what I think was happening. The fuel-pump relay was a bit loose. At 3k RPM and up, the vibes set up some sort of harmonic in the socket/relay that shook it enough to break contact and interrupt smooth and consistent fuel pressure/delivery.... hence the misses, and in a couple cases, dying. I think that over time, my various removals of the relays has loosened up the sockets, and with the addition of some dielectric grease this Spring, made things too slippery and exacerbated the "loose" issue, along with impeding a good contact. So, I cleaned up the sockets, bent them tighter so they grip the relay spades a bit better, and so far it seems to be fine now. The moral of the story? Relays... Relays... Relays... even for something as odd as the scenario I describe above, which IMHO I would have never initially predicted relays would be the cause of an RPM specific misfire Interesting... al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big unit Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Thanks for sharing the experience Al. With this empirical knowledge I'm sure it will save some people a few headaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Dear Al, are you mad? Publishing your graphic details like this. How many times have YOU been told – wiggle your relay in private. The cops are clearly onto you and next time could be the time when indeed they manage to get a good look. Then you've had it. Stick with your own advice and keep everything buttoned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 OK, I see what happened now. There is a thread elsewhere that I had been avoiding. I've just looked at it and I see that there was a picture of 'someone' posted that had the effect of unhingeing you. Nature isn't always pretty. Here's hoping that your inner child recovers and your wild behaviour stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX REDNECK (R.I.P.) Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Yes, I must say, redangel is quite stunning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthro Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Thanks for sharing the whole story Anthro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dkgross Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 and my guess is that's the FIRST thing Moto I is gonna check tomorrow that Robbie and I DIDN'T think to check... I even carry a few spare relays..but, i didn't check to see if the existing ones were loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikie Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 The fuel pump relay has been plaguing me on and off since I got this bike. It often sputters and stalls in just the way Al described, and about eight months ago Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics seemed to have sorted it out for me. Well, nothing lasts forever. On Saturday I was taking the LM to a dealership that ordered me a new steering damper, as the old one pooped out. On the freeways en route, the bike stalled on me no less than five times, and each time I'd have to pull over in death-defying traffic to wiggle the relay and get it going again. Sometimes it would take longer to do this than other times. I ended up leaving the bike there for them to try and fix (it's still under warranty thank goodness). This has been my one major complaint about the MG, and it's been ongoing. As an aside, I've been told that my engine cases are ready to be shipped, except they're still waiting for rod bolts (whatever they are), so they're not being sent yet. This story has been going on for a couple of months now, and the cases were ordered last January. I'm beginning to get a little pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John T Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Al, Are you running stock relays or have you replaced them with the Bosch units? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 They were Bosch replacements about a week after new, then I replaced the Bosch units with the GEI units from Dan. I think all the "swapping" loosened things up too much. I put a couple of the Bosch relays back, as they seemed a bit tighter, and so far all is well. I kept the GEI on the Lights and Starter though.... maybe one other location, I forget which. So I have a mix now, but none of the stock Siemens. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Cheek Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Sounds like the problem is not the relay it's the sockets . The sockets are not intended for a string of plug/unplug cycles ,especially from heavy "wigglers" Resist the tempation to rock the relay about while pulling to extract from it's socket . The sockets are not made from springy metal and once bent they do not recover . The anal compulsives who play with the relays can create more problems than they eliminate . Haven't had to replace a Bosch relay in a Guzzi yet . The OMRON is another excellent choice . Some of the other brands have been dicey . The Bosch and OMRON are all we use now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 ...gotcha, and sage advice indeed WRT to the sockets' impact from multiple insertions/removals al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrt Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Uh, are you sure you meant to say that, Al? TX- NO PICTURES! NO PICTURES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al_roethlisberger Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 ...well, at least I didn't ask for pictures of a transverse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GGuzzi Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Txredneck Dude I gotta know are those pictures you have under your heading self portraits. LOL> Sorry dude I gotta know, they just crack me up... P.S. If so try excersizing and less supersizing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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