False Nuetrals, getting worse!

[Guest jeremy]

hey guys, I put Schaffer's gear lube in my tranny and rear drive and it made a ton of difference, and thats on an old crappy shifting five speed, I'll bet it shifts almost as nice as a five speed and the lube has moly in it. It may be hard to find though, my local Guzzi/BMW dealer has used it exclusively for years. just a thought

 

cheers

[Gio]

I can concur with many of these obsevations. I have a history of shift problems on my V11S (typically a lagging miss-shift going up from 1 to 2) and my dealer has looked into numerous possibilities (incl replacing the clutch line with an oversize and new master/slave cylinders to check for any lag).

 

For this reason I often short-shift from 1 to 3 to avoid the problem but have also learned that pre-loading the lever before shifting and also making a firm shift helps a lot. It seems like this box does not like to be rushed.

 

Having read some of the things others have tried I recently moved the shift linkage from the upper hole (stock) to the lower position and also gave the whole linkage a thourough clean and lube. This made a big difference but I'm not sure if it was diue to the linkage re-location or the clean/lube (?) - perhaps a combination of both.

 

BTW I'm still not convinced that this can be done without removing the starter motor... (no big deal however)

 

Gio

[docc]

The ongoing saga of the "11 speed" Guzzi box: returning from an agressive 640 mile ride I must find a dealer to inspect the function of the gearbox.

 

So many times the box 'passes ' a gear upshifting. Especially in the higher RPM when trying to keep acceleration. Now. on this ride, I discover the same malady downshifting. Very dangerous approaching a decreasing radius switchback in the mountains with other riders behind to downshift out of gear not knowing what gear the box will engage once coaxed into any availabe cog.

 

I have tried all techniques of preloading, aggressive shifting, linkage adjustments, pawl engagment adjustment, oil change, moly additive, clutch service, RPM matching.

 

I say it 'passes' a gear because I have found it to engage the next gear( down or up ) by going 'back' for it. Forcing the the shift further 'skips' a gear. Something is allowing the mechanism to 'overtravel' and miss the next gear in the sequence. This is a hard concept to express in words. Try this: if your box hits false neutral, shift back the opposite way and see if it engages the gear you were intending.

 

A couple of questions: first, is there any possibillity the return spring is causing this? Second, have the part numbers for the return spring changed over the four year production of the 6-speed gearbox?

 

 

Your help is ever appreciated. I must do something to solve this as the failure to shift reliably threatened the safety of myself and other riders.

[Murray]

Ok don't have a six speed but one thing I have found is the condition of the final drive oil is highly critical to the quality of the shift action of the 1100 sport. There is only quarter of a liter sitting in there and if you travel at enthusiastic paces it must get very very hot. I now change the final drive oil every 5000 kms with the engine oil and the gear oils perfomance (as measured by the shift action) is usally marginal by that time. Currently using a nulon gear oil treatment used molykote and various other graphtie treatments can't really ever say they made a big difference tried the redline wonder snot and it was completely catus by around 8000kms and made little to no difference to the shift action. Admittedly the 1100 sport carbe model came out without a cush drive or the heatsink flange around the final drive housing and may run a bit warmer that the other guzzi's. Bike has around 70 000kms on it and travels around 15-20 000kms a year.

[Gio]

Just to add to an earlier comment on this thread (and assuming we both survive the perils of syncing..) I will need to change transmission fluids shortly and plan to try some of the things I have learned here.

 

Out of interest I asked my MG dealer what they currently use/recommend and was told 230cc of 80wt plus 20cc of moly for the final (bevel) drive (or use the MG product which has moly already added, BUT that there was some evidence that use of moly in the transmission (gearbox) fluid can cause leakage from the rear seal...?

 

Anyone else heard this?

 

Gio

[docc]

I've read long debates on what might spring seal leaks. The jury is still out. I put some moly in my gearbox last change hoping to improve shifting. It didn't. It just made it harder to evaluate the condition of the fluid upon changing the next time. Back to Bel-Ray.

 

NOTE:

 

The rear drive does hold 370 ml(cc) of which 20 cc is moly. The Guzzi stuff is good (shake well!), part number K660032.

 

Now this:

 

When my box miisses a gear I have observed it goes completely past it , into neutral before the next gear. This has been occurring now on the downshift as well. It has taken some time to confirm this observation. I find that if the box misses I shift BACK the other way to find the intended gear.

 

This occurs more in hard acceleration (deceleration) and aggressive shifting. All other Guzzisti are saying, "You must shift very hard and with a long throw." While this may be true for the 5-speed I am now questioning this logic for the 6-speed.

 

After studying enlargments from the manual detailing the 'preselector' mechanism, I reduced the leverage at the foot lever (lower hole) and at the splined shaft (rotated the input lever back so as to reduce its leverage while shortening the rod to its minimum length). I then took a ride purposefully minimizing inputs to the shift lever.

 

The (tentative) result: many less missed shifts. It appears the preselector can be kicked into overtravel fairly easily.

 

Under warraanty I will be disassembling my side cover (preselector cover) to better examine the workings. As always I will let you know what is found. I am confident we can make this mechanism shift more reliably.

 

Now, my question to you: when your gearbox misses shifts, does it fall short of the next gear, or 'pass' it?

[Mike Stewart]

Well Docc, my heart is out to you. I hope you find a solution to the Guzzi 6 spd. I know with mileage, my 6 spd. was a hit or miss for getting the right gear. I found that I could find a neutral in every gear. The only gear that never gave me problems was the 1st to 2nd shift. The dealer told me it cost Guzzi $2200. dollars to rebuild my transmission after 3rd. gear came apart and wiped out the rest of the transmission. Guzzi wanted the dealer to repair mine instead of dropping in a new unit. The $2200. was for parts alone and with out labor. They also had the trans apart a few times because there were some updated parts that did not work with the older ones.

 

The 03 Rosso trans has the same shifter throw and feels alot like the 00 trans. So far I have only missed one shift and that was when I was leaned over so far, I just could not hit the shifter right.

 

I am still sold on my extended shifter linkage on my 00 Sport. I have only missed one shift in 2500 miles. Not bad considering!

 

Mike

[docc]

Tonight i re-adjusted the 'pawl ' engagement. Technically referred to as the adjustment of the hook effect of the preselector.

 

I had observed upshifts passed a gear and downshifts fell short. upon checking the adjuster I find that it had 'migrated ' off center. After resetting it to center missed shifts have *almost* disappeared!

 

The adjustment is very sensitive as the shaft only rotates about 60 degrees moving the foot lever perhaps 5-6 mm.

 

As Rich says, "This bike loves to have everything 'just so'."

[Gio]

That's great news Doc. I may have missed this in an earlier post but I assume that adjusting the pawl previously did not have such a beneficial effect in your case? Or as you say it may just be a very sensitive adjustment which needs to be exactly right. I will try this adjustment myself.

 

Gio

[docc]

While riding, I theorized the adjustment needed attention since the box was 'passing' upshifts and falling short on downshifts.

 

After removing the cap nut I found the adjusting screw had migrated off center and its jam nut was no longer tight.

 

I centered the screw by aligning a ruler behind the foot lever and carefully aligned the adjustment to center. Then, holding the slot still with a screwdriver, tightened the jam nut with a 19mm crow's foot.

 

I'm still negotiating with the dealer on an inspection of the preselector mechanism for wear or damage.

 

I've posted over on the Wildguzzi site for information on the Cycle World long term V11s. They apparently replaced the shift forks and, perhaps, the sliders. I'm looking for more info on this bike.

 

Also, early production bikes are known for more difficulties. Most early production have polished (not painted) front turn signal extensions and finned exhaust manifolds.

 

Mike, how early is your sport? How many miles when it grenaded?

[Mike Stewart]

Docc,

 

My bike was made in early 2000, it had about 16,000 miles on it when the trans. let go.

 

Mike

[motowarren]

The ongoing saga of the "11 speed" Guzzi box: returning from an agressive 640 mile ride I must find a dealer to inspect the function of the gearbox.

 

So many times the box 'passes ' a gear upshifting. Especially in the higher RPM when trying to keep acceleration. Now. on this ride, I discover the same malady downshifting. Very dangerous approaching a decreasing radius switchback in the mountains with other riders behind to downshift out of gear not knowing what gear the box will engage once coaxed into any availabe cog.

 

I have tried all techniques of preloading, aggressive shifting, linkage adjustments, pawl engagment adjustment, oil change, moly additive, clutch service, RPM matching.

 

I say it 'passes' a gear because I have found it to engage the next gear( down or up ) by going 'back' for it. Forcing the the shift further 'skips' a gear. Something is allowing the mechanism to 'overtravel' and miss the next gear in the sequence. This is a hard concept to express in words. Try this: if your box hits false neutral, shift back the opposite way and see if it engages the gear you were intending.

 

A couple of questions: first, is there any possibillity the return spring is causing this? Second, have the part numbers for the return spring changed over the four year production of the 6-speed gearbox?

 

 

Your help is ever appreciated. I must do something to solve this as the failure to shift reliably threatened the safety of myself and other riders.

Docc I know this is an old post so I'm wondering if you ever reached a definitive resolve. I was out riding today, rather aggressively and although I don't have any problems upshifting it was getting to the point where it was acting just like you described on every 5-4, 4-3 downshift. Like it was really going past the gear it was supposed to find. And I feel your whole statement about safety is exactly how I feel. I changed to the high shock Redline last fall and it made a big difference but now it feels like something has come out of adjustment. You were saying in this thread about centering something. I didn't understand what you were talking about. Did it work? are there pictures?

[mznyc]

Warren,Docc was speaking of the acorn nut adjuster which is on the Pre-selector assembly cover.It allows you to adjust the amount of play on the shift lever up or down.Most dont find that it makes much of a difference by adjusting,his was loose.

Mine had similar symptoms,tried many things,acorn nut,fluid,clutch fluid,changed clutch,new springs in the cover.None helped.Finally changed to a later model pre-selector cover and shifts like a champ.Mine didn't look to have any issues when inspecting it several times but an 04 assembly did the trick.

[docc]

Must agree with mznyc: the pre-selector adjustment doesn't seem to have solved any major issues. Mine ended up with a complete gearbox replacement under warranty. Not long after, the early gearboxes were recalled for several corrections including the "sliding dogs" and the "washer stack" or, what was it called . . .  "cush drive?" (not to be confused with the cush drive of the rear bevel drive).

 

You will need to verify the recall work has been performed on your gearbox.

[motowarren]

Well I will get up to the dealer next week and see if their computer will show whether mine was ever worked on for recall items. Meanwhile does anybody have an idea where to get a later pre selector cover? What years, what models (california Breva etc) and whats a fair price for one?