Filter Cover tool

[Ryland3210]

It's _nowhere_ near as simple as that. Running plain bearings without oil pressure for _any_ length of time will incur damage, the amount dependent on speed of rotation and load. Repeatedly installing a filter dry and then running the engine to fill it and get oil pressure up _will_ shorten bearing life.

 

I never defined "quite some time", but I'm thinking seconds here. That's all it takes even at idle speed for oil pressure to build, unless something is wrong. What percentage of filters that are changed do you imagine are prefilled? I venture to say hardly any dealers, and none of the quick oil change outfits do. There is no question the vast majority of filters are installed dry repeatedly throughout the life of the engine. By what percentage of engine life do you think this widespread practice is reduced?

[Ryland3210]

Is there any specified wrench torgue for tightening the filter?

 

On the filter supplied with my bike, it specified 10-12 N-m. However, this is far less than the torque required when I use my favored turns counting approach even with the gasket oiled.

 

Like Rachethack, I too have never had a filter come loose. I have changed the filters on all my family's vehicles for over 35 years, and never had one come loose or leak.

[Guest Mattress]

"Perfect people and perfect systems do not require safeties. "

So what happens when a less than perfect mechanic fails to properly tighten the hose clamp?

 

Ever consider drilling the hose clamp screw for a safety wire? It wouldn't hurt to do the same on filter clamps when they are used on hoses too.

 

 

Why not just ditch the clamp altogether, drill a hole through your filter and safety wire it.

 

Seriously though, if people are really worried about it falling off then use a Constant Tension hose clamp. Available from my favorite place, McMaster-Carr.

http___www.mcmaster.com_catalog_112_PDFPrinterFriendly_0231.pdf

[Zoom Zoom]

I have been following this thread and I now feel compelled to offer up my . To begin with, the tips and tricks offered up here are simply that, weather in this thread, or any other for that matter. Anybody can choose to use them or not. As far as I can recall, there has been nothing suggested that could make a situation worse instead of better. These things are usually a result of something that had been learned the hard way. When I was young, my dad used to say "You can learn it the hard way, or listen to me. I've already learned it the hard way, and I might be able to save you the trouble!"

 

Now, having said that, anybody can take or leave the suggestions that people share here. It's as simple as that! Don't do it if you don't want to.

 

As to oil starvation, I have seen the light come on, maybe 4 times. Believe it or not, any amount of starvation to the bearings will begin to have a detremental effect. It is cumulative, and over time can cause failure. When I was taught to change oil, you make sure the contact surface is clean, you spread a film of oil on the gasket of the new filter so that it gets properly tightened, and you pulled the coil wire and cranked the engine until you built oil pressure. Now here's the rub. If you look at owner manuals for stuff with modern electronic ignition systems, it tells you not to crank the engine with the spark plug wires disconnected as damage could result from doing so. The operative word here is "could", maybe it will and maybe it will not.

 

So the alternative is to not rev or load your engine with insufficent oil pressure, right. That does not mean that no damage is occuring. It means you're minimising it. If your light comes on under acceleration, do you keep cranking on it? No, you pull in the clutch to unload the engine and drop the rpms or kill the engine.

 

Do Petes sloppage sheets work? Time will tell. As was mentioned, Greg has actually put a gauge on his bike, so he will be able to tell if this sheet has made an immediate difference. If you think this sheet is so ineffective, I suggest you look at Summit Racings web site. They sell windage trays for every popular auto engine that is raced on any type of course. Why? Because it helps keep the oil away from the crank, therby increasing horse power, and keeps the oil from frothing up, which can compromise lubrication. If they don't work, how come just about every race engine has one, except of course, a dry sump engine? Why doesn't the auto manufacturers install them from the factory? The answer is $$$$$$$. The average person will never subject their cars to the demands of racing at sustained high rpms or loads. The rest can go to Summit. Have at it, I've gotten in my 2 cents worth.

 

Cheers

 

Zoom Zoom,

John Henry

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Right, no one has to take the advice either way.

People have an opportunity here to make suggestions and the same folks have an equal opportunity to express concerns regarding that suggestion as well as question it's need in the first place.

 

YES there are down sides to the hose clamp band aid. As stated elsewhere and as stated for the 30 years a few people have advocated the hose clamp. Anyone who cannot be relied upon to properly tighten a filter should not be trusted to properly tighten a hose clamp. An overtightened clamp can strip and fall apart, an undertightened or clamp put on out of alignment can slip off and fall into the sump. Whereupon it can work it's way into undesireable places. Parts that aren't present can't give problems when they go where they should not be.

Plus it can be a real treat for a subsequent mechanic, doing things by the book who attempts to remove one of these filters not knowing about the 1975" hose clamp-intended-for -a-rubber-hose-now -wrapped -around - a-filter trick".

 

"Cheap proof against a known hazard"???

Ridiculous! Tightening the filter properly costs nothing. One thing known about the "hazard " is the cause. Proper, tight filter=no hazard! When the band-aid creates a hazard cheap doesn't matter.

 

Simply properly tightening the filter works and works well. A properly tightened filter will not come off.

 

Just un-needed "fix" contrived by people too lame to realize or admit they screwed up. IMHO

 

The issue with electronic ignitions is, when the plug wires are disconnected the secondary voltage skyrockets way above the desgn voltage. This high voltage will breakdown the insulation and destroy a very costly coil. It is the same reason too large a spark plug gap or a bad plug wire can cause a coil to breakdown.

[Ryland3210]

I have been following this thread and I now feel compelled to offer up my . To begin with, the tips and tricks offered up here are simply that, weather in this thread, or any other for that matter. Anybody can ....

 

Why doesn't the auto manufacturers install them from the factory? The answer is $$$$$$$. The average person will never subject their cars to the demands of racing at sustained high rpms or loads. The rest can go to Summit. Have at it, I've gotten in my 2 cents worth.

 

Cheers

 

Zoom Zoom,

John Henry

 

This old timer agrees with all you say. When I rebuilt engines in years past, it was easy to take out the distributor and spin the pump with an electric drill, followed by your method of cranking. With my boat, which had carbs and pressure guages, I would crank it to build pressure first, because it would never start cold unless the accelerator pump was goosed and clutch allow to close. It used to take a good 10-20 seconds to build up oil pressure.

 

The anti drain back valves in some filters help, and the one spec'd for my Guzzi has one. However, since the filter is mounted upside down anyway, I wonder if that does anything but add a little pressure loss.

 

In the "good old days", my 1967 Barracuda's 383 high performance engine came with a windage tray. I think it was primarily for keeping the oil away from the crank, since it had holes near the rear of the engine which would do little for preventing pump starvation. Acceleration was pretty good, at zero to sixty in 6 seconds, yet I never had a problem with oil starvation, so I suppose the sump and pickup design did their job.

[Ryland3210]

I've taken the time to make careful measurements, and here is what I found on my '04 Cafe Sport:

 

Dipstick calibration results:

 

With a filter change, thorough draining of the sump, then adding 3.5 liters per the manual and running the engine long enough to fill the filter, the oil level reached 2.09" from the end of the dipstick. That's 0.69 higher than its full mark, but still 0.33 lower than the gasket along the dipstick, or 0.23" viertically.

 

This suggests that the dipstick calibration as supplied with the machine is incorrect. In another post, I recall it said the correct method is to measure with the dipstick not threaded in, opposite to the manual's instructions. That's about 0.5 inches higher, but still significantly lower than the 0.69 I measured. However, it's difficult to ensure the dipstick is parallel with the thread to get the right reading. I prefer the screwed in method, and plan to put two new marks on the dipstick: One for when the bike is perpendicular, and another when it is on the sidestand.

 

With a difference of 0.69 from the dipstick full mark to the measured oil level, I have to assume a flashing oil warning light could well indicate oil starvation under acceleration, especially if the oil level is near the lower mark, and since the pickup is towards the front of the motor. Unless someone comes up with a theory to discount this, I plan to proceed on the assumption the 3.5 liter specification is correct.

 

Since this initial measurement, I have been refilling with 4 quarts with filter change. A Roper plate was just installed, and I thought it worthwhile to post a picture with dipstick screwed in. Looks like there is plenty of room for four quarts and more.

 

[tmcafe]

Great picture. I refilled with 4 qts as well. Very curious about your Roper plate test results on the pressure gauge.

 

Since this initial measurement, I have been refilling with 4 quarts with filter change. A Roper plate was just installed, and I thought it worthwhile to post a picture with dipstick screwed in. Looks like there is plenty of room for four quarts and more.

 

[Ryland3210]

I'm looking forward to the pressure test as well. Next step is dyno tuning for the Staintunes and open airbox mod's. before I lay the hammer down!

[rac]

hi

after reading all about the filters coming loose ,thought i would check mine was tight ,being new to guzzis ,a little knowledge is dangerous eh .used the rear axle nut with a spanner to undo the big cover , opps 2.5 lts of oil all over the floor within seconds. not a happy bunnie . after a hour of cleaning up got back to business. the filter woes ,it was reasonable tight ,so out come the ducati oil key ,it fitted enough to give it quarter of a turn more .its tight .why on earth have the guzzi guys put a filter inside the sump . why is there no external filter ? ducati bmw ,20 seconds to change and to cut a long story short it was no tighter than the bmw or ducati filters that have never came off. put the big cover back on ,it has only 3 to 4 threads,easy to strip ,now more worried that will come off than the filter .refilled with oil ,marked the cover with a blob of paint to see if it moves . been to work and back today 40 miles ,no problem .now will buy a proper guzzi oil filter key+ guzzi filter for a easy life next time . how necessary is it to drop the sump and do the internal mesh screen ?. knowing my luck the sump bolts will be stuck solid or shear off .

[Dan M]

hi

after reading all about the filters coming loose ,thought i would check mine was tight ,being new to guzzis ,a little knowledge is dangerous eh .used the rear axle nut with a spanner to undo the big cover , opps 2.5 lts of oil all over the floor within seconds. not a happy bunnie . after a hour of cleaning up got back to business. the filter woes ,it was reasonable tight ,so out come the ducati oil key ,it fitted enough to give it quarter of a turn more .its tight .why on earth have the guzzi guys put a filter inside the sump . why is there no external filter ? ducati bmw ,20 seconds to change and to cut a long story short it was no tighter than the bmw or ducati filters that have never came off. put the big cover back on ,it has only 3 to 4 threads,easy to strip ,now more worried that will come off than the filter .refilled with oil ,marked the cover with a blob of paint to see if it moves . been to work and back today 40 miles ,no problem .now will buy a proper guzzi oil filter key+ guzzi filter for a easy life next time . how necessary is it to drop the sump and do the internal mesh screen ?. knowing my luck the sump bolts will be stuck solid or shear off .

 

Hey Rac,

 

Sump pan comes off easily. I generally clean my screen annually. After the first time it has never been too dirty. It is certianly easier to change (and properly tighten) the filter with the pan off.

[rac]

hi dan m

thanks ,i'll look forward to having the sump off .hopefull all will go well .

[rac]

hi ryland3210

nice pics ,safe to put 4 quarts in ,that is us quarts 3.76 litres .i presume that is with a hot motor?.seen somewhere on the net about deep sumps,and a baffle in the sump .good idea

[Ryland3210]

hi ryland3210

nice pics ,safe to put 4 quarts in ,that is us quarts 3.76 litres .i presume that is with a hot motor?.seen somewhere on the net about deep sumps,and a baffle in the sump .good idea

 

I put in 4 U.S. quarts (3.78 liters) with a filter change. It came to 1/4 inch above the full mark on the dipstick, next to the 11 inch mark on the scale. On your bike, without the Roper plate, it should come up to about 3/8 inch higher than the full mark on the dipstick, still safely well below the block to sump gasket. According to my trusty Radio Shack conversion calculator, the conversion from 4 U.S. quarts is to 3.33 Imperial quarts. All measurements taken with the bike vertical and level and dipstick screwed in.

 

If you refill without changing the filter, I would not add oil any higher than 0.69 inches above the dipstick full mark. If you install a Roper plate, you can go higher. Roper recommends just below the plate. As you can see, that's 2-5/8 from the tip of the dipstick.

 

There is a plug at the back of the sump to drain oil from. It is a magnetic drain plug, the smaller of the two. It's a good idea to pull that out and wipe off any iron and steel particles that accumulate whenever you change oil.

 

Draining the oil while still warm is a good idea simply because it comes out faster. It doesn't matter how cold the oil is versus the motor when you refill. The thermal expansion coefficient of oil is insignificant in this case.

[rac]

hi ryland 3210

thanks for the info .rc