Filter Cover tool

[orangeokie]

Thanks for the photos Greg. Here's a question for you. How does the hose clamp keep the filter from backing off? And if one were to safety wire the clamp, where would one tie off? Thanks.

[Ryland3210]

Perfect people and perfect systems do not require safeties.

 

And that flickering oil light on your V11? It's nothing. Totally normal. Just ignore it. Really.

 

I've taken the time to make careful measurements, and here is what I found on my '04 Cafe Sport:

 

Dipstick calibration results:

 

With a filter change, thorough draining of the sump, then adding 3.5 liters per the manual and running the engine long enough to fill the filter, the oil level reached 2.09" from the end of the dipstick. That's 0.69 higher than its full mark, but still 0.33 lower than the gasket along the dipstick, or 0.23" viertically.

 

This suggests that the dipstick calibration as supplied with the machine is incorrect. In another post, I recall it said the correct method is to measure with the dipstick not threaded in, opposite to the manual's instructions. That's about 0.5 inches higher, but still significantly lower than the 0.69 I measured. However, it's difficult to ensure the dipstick is parallel with the thread to get the right reading. I prefer the screwed in method, and plan to put two new marks on the dipstick: One for when the bike is perpendicular, and another when it is on the sidestand.

 

With a difference of 0.69 from the dipstick full mark to the measured oil level, I have to assume a flashing oil warning light could well indicate oil starvation under acceleration, especially if the oil level is near the lower mark, and since the pickup is towards the front of the motor. Unless someone comes up with a theory to discount this, I plan to proceed on the assumption the 3.5 liter specification is correct.

[dlaing]

 

So what happens when a less than perfect mechanic fails to properly tighten the hose clamp?

 

I wonder if a better solution might be to wedge some rubber between the filter access and the filter.

The obvious advantage is no hose clamp swimming in the slop(probably would not do harm if it came loose, but if the screw gear came loose(and I have seen them come loose) it could do some damage...maybe???

The rubber pad would be trapped and the only thing to fear would be bad design, so it could come loose, or bad rubber selection and the pad melts like licorice on a dashboard

But assuming it is properly engineered, it could be a safer solution.

We can call it a squish pad

So the strategy would be:

Install filter through access.

Tighten appropriately.

Wad up some plasticene in bottom of access cover.

Screw access cover home.

Remove access cover.

Measure Plasticene thickness.

Cut a slab of rubber to fit, such that it will compress nicely to the dimension of the plasticene thickness.

Replace plasticene with rubber.

Screw the access cover home.

"Don't worry. Be Happy!"

[gargoyle]

 

With a filter change, thorough draining of the sump, then adding 3.5 liters per the manual and running the engine long enough to fill the filter,

 

When I change my oil I always fill up the filter first and then install it. I then add 3 quarts. I've never had a flickering oil light. To me it just make sense to fill the filter first to avoid that initial dry oil period.

[Guest Gary Cheek]

I wonder if a better solution might be to wedge some rubber between the filter access and the filter.

The obvious advantage is no hose clamp swimming in the slop(probably would not do harm if it came loose, but if the screw gear came loose(and I have seen them come loose) it could do some damage...maybe???

The rubber pad would be trapped and the only thing to fear would be bad design, so it could come loose, or bad rubber selection and the pad melts like licorice on a dashboard

But assuming it is properly engineered, it could be a safer solution.

We can call it a squish pad

So the strategy would be:

Install filter through access.

Tighten appropriately.

Wad up some plasticene in bottom of access cover.

Screw access cover home.

Remove access cover.

Measure Plasticene thickness.

Cut a slab of rubber to fit, such that it will compress nicely to the dimension of the plasticene thickness.

Replace plasticene with rubber.

Screw the access cover home.

"Don't worry. Be Happy!"

 

Maybe we could get a manufacturer of feminine hygiene products to make up a ring that would soak up oil and expand in place

I would think these are all excellent suggestions especially when used in conjunction with the safety wired hose clamp. The hose clamp could be weighted with a slug of tungsten to hellp it remain in the bottom of the pan when it falls off. I have seen hose clamps fall off and it isn't pretty!

The real fun part of the hose clamp prank is when a new owner, unaware of it's presence attempts a NORMAL oil change. Just imagine the laughs you could have if you were there. Why give up that fun?

 

Or one could do the usual 1. Tighten appropriately.

2."Don't worry. Be Happy!"

Both of which are in your posting.

[Ryland3210]

When I change my oil I always fill up the filter first and then install it. I then add 3 quarts. I've never had a flickering oil light. To me it just make sense to fill the filter first to avoid that initial dry oil period.

 

Of course the bearings, etc., will still have oil in them, so the engine would have to run without oil quite some time before the bearings run dry. However, your belts and suspenders approach can only help. Your adding about the same as I am, about 3.5 liters, or 3 quarts 11 ounces.

 

Where does the oil come up to on your dipstick?

[Ryland3210]

I wonder if a better solution might be to wedge some rubber between the filter access and the filter.

.....

Cut a slab of rubber to fit, such that it will compress nicely to the dimension of the plasticene thickness.

Replace plasticene with rubber.

Screw the access cover home.

"Don't worry. Be Happy!"

 

At 75 psi, the force on the filter's projected area is about 350 pounds. The rubber would have to be pretty stiff to do any good. A stronger material might help, but I'm not sure the cover could stand the strain without deforming anyway.

 

I not sure all filters are designed the same, but on the Purolator I'm thinking of using, the gasket is 0.250" thick and protrudes above the rim of the steel housing by 0.067". The thread is 3/4-16, so each turn tightens the filter by 0.0625" If it is tightened by just over one turn after contact, the gasket will be compressed such that the rim of the housing contacts the block, and there is no gap for the gasket to extrude out of. That's probably why the filter makers specify generally 3/4 to 1-1/4 turns. As the filter is tightened, the torque will suddenly increase as the rim contacts the block, which is exactly what happens in my experience. I feel much more secure using this method instead of the torque method.

 

If the torque method is used, and too much of the outside of the gasket is unsupported by the steel housing, oil might bypass the gasket under pressure, eliminating at least some of the benefit of the filter, and reducing oil delivery to the engine. It could well be (and this is a theory), that once this happens, the friction between gasket and block preventing the filter from unscrewing is replaced by a oil film with zero friction. This could account for filters coming loose.

[mike wilson]

Of course the bearings, etc., will still have oil in them, so the engine would have to run without oil quite some time before the bearings run dry.

 

It's _nowhere_ near as simple as that. Running plain bearings without oil pressure for _any_ length of time will incur damage, the amount dependent on speed of rotation and load. Repeatedly installing a filter dry and then running the engine to fill it and get oil pressure up _will_ shorten bearing life.

[Alex-Corsa]

Greg, thanks for posting this clear illustration of extremely cost-effective Guzzi life insurance. An ounce of prevention that would seem to be more'n worth a ton or two of cure. . . .

 

Backing up your point with your shop experience really drives home the point.

 

 

Well I see a hose up there , though I don't get it on how is it preventing the oil filter to unscrew

Any further explanations about it, (instalation,working duty ? )

[Guest ratchethack]

Well I see a hose up there , though I don't get it on how is it preventing the oil filter to unscrew

Any further explanations about it, (instalation,working duty ? )

Alex, think of the worm screw on the hose clamp as a bump that's positioned solidly on the filter. Should the filter begin to unscrew itself, the bump can't get past the the casting boss shown in the photo -- thereby securing the filter in place until the clamp is removed.

 

I've seen (somewhere, can't remember where ) a kind of clamp that's tightened with a screwdriver or socket held parallel to the axis of the item being clamped - in this case, the filter. Now wouldn't it be peachy to find a source for this kind of clamp. It'd allow installation and removal of the clamp without taking off the sump.

 

Now that you bring this up, Alex -- getting back to Greg's standard hose clamp -- I wonder if there's a right-angle socket drive that's small enough to fit between the filter and sump?? I've got a 3/8" flex-drive that might do the trick. . . .

 

I like to take a peek inside the sump as much as the next Guy, but every filter change is at least twice as often as I b'lieve I need to see wot's washed up on the screen. . . .

 

Any o' you Industrial Hardware Guys got any more bright ideas?

[Guest Gary Cheek]

At 75 psi, the force on the filter's projected area is about 350 pounds. The rubber would have to be pretty stiff to do any good. A stronger material might help, but I'm not sure the cover could stand the strain without deforming anyway.

 

I not sure all filters are designed the same, but on the Purolator I'm thinking of using, the gasket is 0.250" thick and protrudes above the rim of the steel housing by 0.067". The thread is 3/4-16, so each turn tightens the filter by 0.0625" If it is tightened by just over one turn after contact, the gasket will be compressed such that the rim of the housing contacts the block, and there is no gap for the gasket to extrude out of. That's probably why the filter makers specify generally 3/4 to 1-1/4 turns. As the filter is tightened, the torque will suddenly increase as the rim contacts the block, which is exactly what happens in my experience. I feel much more secure using this method instead of the torque method.

 

If the torque method is used, and too much of the outside of the gasket is unsupported by the steel housing, oil might bypass the gasket under pressure, eliminating at least some of the benefit of the filter, and reducing oil delivery to the engine. It could well be (and this is a theory), that once this happens, the friction between gasket and block preventing the filter from unscrewing is replaced by a oil film with zero friction. This could account for filters coming loose.

 

I too prefer and use the turns method. The gasket MUST be oiled at the time of installation. This minimizes the torsional shear across the gasket and allows it to compress.

I must however note that in aircraft spin on applications TORQUE is the specified method , along with a safety wire that goes to a plate or extrusion on the filter can.

 

On the bikes I still and probably always will beleive when a filter backs off, the installer is to blame.

[Alex-Corsa]

 

I must however note that in aircraft spin on applications TORQUE is the specified method ,

 

Is there any specified wrench torgue for tightening the filter?

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Is there any specified wrench torgue for tightening the filter?

 

 

Varies with application. Since we are dealing with a relatively thick rubber seal it is apparent as well that the variables with torque specs are pretty broad. For example a cold seal or an older seal will resist compression more than a warm,compliant fresh one. A dry seal face will resist movement and in so doing will use much of the turning force to overcome the rubber to aluminum friction.

 

I am not familiar with the conditions the FAA for the operator when torquing but I hope they take this into account. The variables with that method are the reason I prefer the turns method allows for control of the amount of compression which is the critical function of the filter seal.

 

Just because it is aircraft spec it isn't necessarily better for our application.

[Guest ratchethack]

Hmmm, just thinkin' out loud here. Though it's a brilliantly elegant solution, and great for peace of mind for the customer of a Pro, I've just re-thought the filter clamp. Do we really need to throw another new thing to worry about on the pile we seem to've been making considerably higher lately?

 

I've been changing oil on my own vehicles since Hector was a pup. In all of my twisting on and off of oil filters, I've had a few really tough to get off, but NEVER have I had one come loose. I can't imagine what it is about Guzzi's internal filters that would make 'em any more likely to jump ship.

 

As Gary mentioned, it has to be that for whatever reason, SOME owners (o'course, we've got 'em in all possible flavors and some not-so-possible ) are simply not tightening them adequately!!

 

We're certainly aware that stranger things than this have happened on this Forum (and will no doubt continue). . . . .

 

Enquiring minds ponder the infinite depths of wonder attending the human condition. . . .

[Guest Gary Cheek]

A fond gaze at a mere hint of light. Better than more empty days of darkness