GuzziMoto
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Posts posted by GuzziMoto
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. . .[sigh]. . . I tried five times and five ways. Now I give up. Anybody who does "get it" wanna take a whack?
Guess not.
I agree that chasing peak power for a road going V11 is silly. But nobody here is suggesting that, as far as I can tell. All the mods we've discussed enhance the mid range torque as much as they help the peak output. I have not changed the power curve of my V11, I have amplified it. Turned it up a couple of notches. It has not cost me any drivability, reliability, or even mileage. I have no doubt that someone could screw up a V11 modding it unwisely( so perhaps it's best you leave yours as is), but if you do your homework and choose your mods wisely it is a win/win situation( if you feel the need for more power to begin with).
And as far as the pinging goes, improving the squish helped out with that a lot.
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Thank you.
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I think it might be you that's missing the point. I understand that you don't need anymore power then you currently are getting out of your V11. That's fine. More power to ya(so to speak). But for some of us a faster, more responsive Guzzi is a good thing. That is a personal choice. Personally I choose more power and responsiveness. And both me and my wife can tell the difference. A more responsive Guzzi feels like a faster bike then it is compared to a stock Guzzi. A we both do hit the throttle stop on a frequent basis. For us it's not about improving top speed but the acceleration out of the corners. Clearly you do not ride like we do and that's fine. In the end it comes down to either you get it or you don't. I get it.
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It's not just at WOT that my V11 is faster then yours, it's at any throttle opening. Not trying to piss you off.The point is that a tuned up V11 not only makes more power at WOT but is more responsive to any size throttle opening and for some of us that makes the riding experience more fun. The top speed of my V11 isn't much different then the top speed of yours, but mine is quicker at any speed and throttle position then it was. For some of us, That is worth a few thousand dollars. As long as you have realistic expectations of the outcome, modding a Guzzi can improve the riding experience if want.
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Ferraci's horses are small italian horses so more of them fit in the same space as american horses.
His dyno only reads optimistic after he's modded your bike. But even 90 RwHp is great out of a Guzzi. That's like 20% over stock. Sweet. My wifes V11 has about 85 Rwhp but I don't think the map is all it could be and close to 90 could be within reach, but that can wait. The bike is quick enough for now.
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I vote for Skeeves idea.
I have also seen bikes use a thick rubber flap that extends out past the bottom of the stand. This flap bends out of the way when using the stand, but if you ride off when the stand is down and lean into a left turn, the rubber flap hits the ground first and folds the stand back making it retract.
And I have a friend with a few Ducatis. We were down in Daytona. His bike was parked in the bike lot. The lot attendant men decided they needed to move his bike. They picked it up off the stand, the alarm went off and the stand retracted. They of course let go of the bike when the alarm went off, probably assuming it would rest back on the stand(which had retracted). The bike dropped on its side doing a fair bit of cosmetic damage. I have never liked self retracting stands and after that day I would definetly switch to a different design.
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It works fine for me. And many others still use it too. It is a very simple concept. As the tyre(and the air inside) heats up the air tries to expand. That causes an increase in pressure that you can measure with a pressure gauge. The larger the increase, the more heat. If you have a pyrometer, that works better, more accurate. But few people have that and most have a pressure gauge. It is only a ball park test, but it works well enough for racing where tyre temp is more critical them it is street riding. Tyres have an optimum operating temp range and the pressure you run in them plays a large part in the temp the tyres run at in use. 10% increase is fine if you want your tyres to run a bit cooler. We always use 15% for street and 15-20% for racing, depending on the track and other factors.
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IThere are better ways to set tire pressure, involving measuring the effects of how riding increased temperature and pressure on the tires and using subjective analysis to look at factors such as how the bike handles and how it grips, but I have never nailed down that method.
Now that I have analyzed(over-analyzed?) it, I realize that the 36 front 38 rear that I settled on should be more like 36 front and just over 37 rear.
But I guess that makes me somewhat better prepared for the rare passenger.Another issue is that I have an assortment of gauges that vary in reading by about 4 or 5 psi.
I tend to go with the more expensive gauges which seem to read lower, so if my cheap gauges are correct I could be at 42PSI
I ain't too worried about it. I think there is a pretty wide range of acceptable pressure, but would not push the bike if the pressure were not well set.
Keep in mind that the bike's maximum load is lower than the tire's 48kg 106# front and 166kg 365# rear, so if your pillon is too heavy, make them hitch a ride.
I do like lower tire pressures for cool or wet conditions. I have heard some suggest higher pressures are better for rain, but I don't think so. Any ideas on that? Reduced chance of hydro-planing???
A good way of checking your tyre pressure to see if you are properly inflating your tyres is to check them cold then go for a typical ride. Then check them hot. The pressure should go up approx 15% from cold to hot. Not enough increase means your pressure was too high to start with and too much increase means the pressure was too low.
The bit about higher pressure in the rain comes from the days of bias-ply tyres. Increasing the air pressure would expand the tyre and open up the grooves in the tyre to help water escape from the contact patch. The one flaw that you had to consider was that running higher pressure would make the tyre run cooler. You had to decide what was more important, water evacuation or heat in the rubber. Todays radial tyres have a more stabile contact patch that is less effected by inflation pressure. The grooves in the tyre do not close down like the grooves in a bias-ply tyre did.
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The air/fuel ratio needs of a Guzzi(as far as the ratio goes) should not be too far off from the needs of air cooled Ducati's. Another important thing would be that they are willing to take the time to get it right. In my opinion a good tuner would run it on the dyno to get the map set up and then ride the bike in the real world to make sure there are no issues with ridability. Sounds simple enough but I have seen atleast a couple tuners who do not properly perform the second step. I would think the Ducati guy would be capable of doing your Guzzi.
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So what you're saying Ratchet, is that it's okay for you to suggest that someone who subscribes to the more is better theory may have bought the wrong motorcycle. But if someone suggests that if you subscibe to the less is better theory they may have bought the wrong motorcycle, that's uncalled for?
And as far as my(and my wifes) happiness goes, it's much like your owns. Except that we appear to prefer a motorcycle with more power and responsiveness(particularly the responsiveness part). Lucky for us Guzzi makes a bike that with a few simple(at least to us, might be over your head) mods fits the bill perfectly.
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The V11 Guzzi has very little incremental output left to wring out of it without running straight up against potentially serious negative consequences for the average V11 rider.
-- Cdr. Hatchracket, Popular Delusion Exterminator Squadron
I'm not sure what you consider "incremental", But after doing all the basic stuff(louder cans, PC w/custom map, etc.) I ported the heads(actually, someone ported them for me) and decked the cylinders/skimmed the heads to improve squish and raise compression. That netted me about 10 ponies over where I was at with the basics done. That's more then a 10 percent increase. Huge improvement. And we're not talking about adding power at peak and losing power in the mid range. The increase was across the board. I realize Those mods are not for everyone, and the improvements may be "incremental" to some, but I(and my wife, it's her bike) are very happy.
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Custom maps are only as good as the person making them. A custom map made buy someone who doesn't under stand the needs of Guzzis is no better and possibly worse then a map you piece together your self. Not saying don't get a custom map, just saying pick your mapper carefully.
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Dang Ratchet, man up and say your sorry, that you over reacted. The guy just asked about getting a little more out of his Guzzi and you said, among other blabberings,"I submit that if you're a graduate of the "more is better" school, (the school taught by modern advertising and Professors of never-satiated appetites and unrestricted, bottomless pit consumption), you've purchased the wrong motorcycle. "
If you are suggesting that someone needs to modify their Guzzi to make it have "issues" or that they would have been happy with their Guzzis if they had only left them stock... Well, I don't even have a politically correct response, how 'bout "that's craaazy talk".
I say mod your Guzzi to make it what the factory meant it to be. A wise man once said "the only reason they ship them assembled is to make sure you get all the parts".
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Why is it that as soon as someone post something about getting more power out of their V11, there is always a few people who question the posters suitability to own a Guzzi? I love Guzzi's AND I love power. You can do both, and a well modded Guzzi will make good power. There is no shame in wanting more power then your Guzzi can with stock. For some of us it is part of the fun of owning a Guzzi, that you can dramatically improve on what the factory saw fit to give.
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Grrr, wasn't allowed out to play today!! She say's petrol (gas) is "too expensive to just play around on". FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! <_ how am i supposed to test all these theories>
Anyway I am totally ok with the whole "This is what Guzzi's do" theory, Just don't want to settle for less than Guzzi has to offer through my ignorance, hence my gratitude for all these great suggestions.
Ah well weekend over and I can at least ride to work 'n back tomorrow, 50km of Kiwi country roads, now to find a bumpy left hander and NOT over cook it
Out of the two Guzzi's my wife and I have, neither steer easier one way then the other. There is a minor bit of torque effect where getting on the gas rocks the bike one way and getting off the gas rocks it back the other way. But this has minimal effect on steering. In fact the Guzzi layout steers lighter the others due to the orientation of the crank. So if your bike really steers easier one way then the other I would check it for what's not straight as Ratchet and others suggested or take it to someone who can do it for you.
For tyre pressure, do what you feel is right. I run in the 32/36 range myself.
And the Continental-esqe quote about our testers in Germany found that blah blah blah air pressure.... that is funny. Is anybody that naive to believe that? And RoadRacing World blew that line out of the water a while back when after doing a tyre test(and Continental did not fair well) they got complaints saying that the test was unfair 'cause they inflated all the tyres to the same pressures and Continental tyres are special and need to be inflated to 40-42 psi. So they retested Continentals at the original pressures and the ones they supposedly need and showed that they performed worse at the high pressures.
Having said that, my intent was only to share an amusing story. I do not care any longer what pressures you run in your tyres. If someone asks for advice it is fair to give it. But if you chose to run some high( or low) pressure in your tyres I don't care.
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He said it was similar to the VA-10. We shall see. You know, Guzzi has been in bankruptcy ever since the transverse-V engine debuted. Now when Guzzi stands poised to enter the water-cooled era, they stick with the architecture that has resulted in continued non-success and which makes no sense if you do not need to expose the cylinders to the cooling of the wind? Yep. That's what they'll do.
I think there are other advantages to the Guzzi layout then cylinder cooling and I would love to see a water cooled transverse-V motor. To me it's a big part of the appeal. The impact on handling as well as the look. Water cooling is coming. It would be hard to avoid. Even Harley has a water cooled bike(two if you count the new Buell). I say bring it on. More power good. And incorperating the trans into the engine to shorten the length of the drive train would be a huge step forward. I would love it. Not holding my breath on any of this though.
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I'm sure there are lots of things that could cause that sort of behavior, and the advice given already is good. I hope it helps. I too resorted to removing the damper to cure handling woes, but that is a personal choice that you need to think about before you make. Your bike is not handling normal and should be checked. In my experience I've only had one thing cause symptoms like you describe(that does not mean it's the only answer) and that was the front and rear wheels not being aligned with each other,ie bent frame. If the advice previously posted does not cure the issue the you may want to check or have checked the bike by a frame shop. hope it's not that but if it is , don't worry, it's not as bad as it sounds. There are good, reasonably priced shops that can make the frame straighter then it was when it left the factory. Hope it is a simpler problem though. Good luck.
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Must we go over this yet again? "Transverse" & "in-line" refer to the orientation of the crankshaft w/ respect to the vehicle's axis.
The last transverse v-twin Guzzi that I'm aware of was the 500cc Bicilindrica.
My SuziQ SV650 is a transverse v-twin, as are Ducatis, Harleys, et al.
I know of an in-line 4v water-cooled v2 exercise from around y2k; is that what you're referring to?
Technically that is correct if refering to the engine layout. Two minor details though. I believe the reference was to the V's layout, not the engines layout. The V is indeed transverse on a Guzzi. Second, if that was the only correct way to refer to engines, then you better get busy 'cause there's a lot of transverse four cylinder engines out there going by the name of "inline fours".
Good luck on that one.
Gyro effect reduced, but torque effect is a problem, especially at the higher revs a more modern motor is likely to turn (stock 1098 rev limit is 10,700rpm, racing R versions are 13,000+!!). The only solution is to counter rotate the crank, ala the MotoCzysz bike, but that's not really been done yet. Hey, I'm a Guzzi nut, just being honest. For a superbike platform--not ideal. For a roadbike--many advantages. I love the arrangement, but when you move to a truly modern motor architecture, ie water cooled, shorter stroke, dual overhead cames, chain drive, etc, etc, then the transverse V begins to lose its advantages.All that said, if they came out with one, I'd want it, no question.
dk
I'm not going MotoGP or even SuperBike racing anytime soon so the torque reaction is not much of an issue. In fact it is one of the charms of the bike to me.
A bigger issue to me that I wish Guzzi would address is drive train length. That was something else that MotoCzysz dealt with(and Guzzi could do the same). Build a watercooled 100+ hp, transverse V(sorry Skeeve) 4 valve per cylinder engine, 56" or less wheelbase, six speed, streetfighter Guzzi and I will buy atleast one(maybe two).
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Doc: You prob'ly know the guy who told me. It was described as a transverse-V engine, so not Mille based.
In my opinion, it'd be retarded to use a transverse-V and make it water-cooled. That means it's prob'ly foremost in pigaggio's mind . . .
What's wrong with a water cooled transverse v engine? Has the same major benefit or any other transverse v(two or four cylinders), lack of crank gyro effect so the bike steers light.
To me having a crank run that way is the most basic part of what makes a Guzzi a Guzzi.
I would like to see a V4, but that's not likely. So the next best thing would be a water cooled 4 valve per cylinder version of the current motor. We finally got the 4 valve head, now we just need the water colling. It's pretty much gotta happen sooner or later due to increasingly tighter regs.
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FWIW the former owner of my '02 (with Ti ECU/exhaust) mostly eliminated the 4k rpm torque dip by adding a PCIII and getting a custom map done. I have his before & after dyno charts that show this. It's possible that the 03-04 V11's didn't have the dip because of a better map from the factory along with the new crossover.
That style of cross-over is more for noise reasons then power. Not saying it won't alter the power curve, and it could even help a little in some places. But it will cost you more power then it will give(taking more from the top end or where-ever else then giving you to fill in the dip). There are ways of tuning the exhaust to improve power output, running a balance pipe from one header to the other 6-8 inches down the head pipe is not one of them.
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The newer Guzzis with 2-1 exhaust have catalytic converters. Wouldn't the cats strangle the sound a bit compared to the old V11s?
A cat does act as a muffler to some extent. So does a two into one collector. But the cat for my Griso is inside the stock muffler which is sitting in my shed. Some bikes have the cat in the collector, which means you must replace the collector to remove the cat, but I see little reward for doing so on a streetbike. To each there own. Cats are coming. Soon they will be on all bikes. Either keep fighting it or get used to it. Take your pick. Time marches on. I just prefer the sound of a twin with a two into one exhaust. It has a small block chevy, pissed off kind of sound. Buells also have a great sound,much better then the sportsters with their dual exhausts. Aprilia RSV's also sound great.
And the look of my Griso with the single sided swing arm and the pipe on the right side so that the left side is open and the wheel is just floating there, I love it.
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Everbody has their own opinions, but to me my Griso with a two into one pipe with a right side exit muffler from RacerX looks and sounds perfect. It has a more aggressive snarl then your twin pipe setup but I like that.
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Even Guzzi now puts 2 into 1 exhausts on their bikes now. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
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There are some talented engineers out there. But to assume that because an engineer designed something a certain way it is how it should be is wrong. There are so many things that were designed by engineers that were total failures that we have a series of tv shows about them. Engineers are human and humans make mistakes. So even if the engineers goals are the same as yours, that does not mean that it is right.
There are so many shortcomings in the Guzzi. But that is one of it's charms. You can actually improve the bike to be better then it was designed to be. Try doing that with your average Japanese sportbike.
More pony's please
in Technical Topics
Posted
In answer to polebridges question about cross-overs.
http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11564