V11s / Scura Attempts to Kill Owner

[Mike]

My Scura should now be charged with attempted murder.

 

This is a cry for help, so I'll cry and hope someone will help. My 02' Scura tried to kill me on Saturday. I've had it a year and 6k. It has 10.5 k on it and Bridgestone Battle Axes. I have turned the dampner up, way up. Logically, it cannot be from the dampner. From the get go I thought it was twitchy but I liked the quick steering. As I ride it harder, I noticed that on a hard upshift it would shake its head a bit as the front got lighter. I did not like this. Saturday, I was working through the gears on a slight up-grade and when I shifted into 5th or 6th, at about 110 mph, on a clean two lane Ontario road in the country, it began The Royal Tank Slapper. I mean a real one. If you have never experienced one of these, you really can't imagine how much fun they are on a public road with fence posts utility poles, traffic...

 

I followed the Code method of resisting "survival" responses, kept my hands super light on the bars, - no help - I added a little throttle - no help and a sense that the famous last words ("oh shit") might be coming, I rolled off a bit worrying that putting some more weight on the front would make things worse and I'd be pitched off for sure, but it calmed down. The first words inside my helmet were something like "you m-f piece of ... I am killing you and selling what's left", but... I really love it... I also notice that on on and off ramps it wobbles in and out, like others notice.

 

Has anyone experimented with dropping the clamps to allow some more fork tube on top? I don't see this as a dampening problem so much as it seems that across the board the bike squirms in turns unless you are super smooth and your steering inputs are made with your weight way forward. I do wonder about the tire selection.

 

First - my sense is that the instability problem on V11s is that the front end is too light. Other people have written that they get the best handling by balls to the tank and I notice the same thing, and placing your head about over the switch gear while leaned over, better to steer more with the body than overt countersteer.

 

 

Compared to my 93 Ducati 900SS, the Scura is a scary, nasty and unstable bike. I can't believe there is not some fundamental thing wrong here and hope someone has cured this problem.

 

mike lebow

Edited September 24, 2007 by Mike

[belfastguzzi]

My Scura should now be charged with attempted murder.

 

This is a cry for help, so I'll cry and hope someone will help. My 02' Scura tried to kill me on Saturday. I've had it a year and 6k. It has 10.5 k on it and Bridgestone Battle Axes. I have turned the dampner up, way up. Logically, it cannot be from the dampner. From the get go I thought it was twitchy but I liked the quick steering. As I ride it harder, I noticed that on a hard upshift it would shake its head a bit as the front got lighter. I did not like this. Saturday, I was working through the gears on a slight up-grade and when I shifted into 5th or 6th, at about 110 mph, on a clean two lane Ontario road in the country, it began The Royal Tank Slapper. I mean a real one. If you have never experienced one of these, you really can't imagine how much fun they are on a public road with fence posts utility poles, traffic...

 

I followed the Code method of resisting "survival" responses, kept my hands super light on the bars, - no help - I added a little throttle - no help and a sense that the famous last words ("oh shit") might be coming, I rolled off a bit worrying that putting some more weight on the front would make things worse and I'd be pitched off for sure, but it calmed down. The first words inside my helmet were something like "you m-f piece of ... I am killing you and selling what's left", but... I really love it... I also notice that on on and off ramps it wobbles in and out, like others notice.

 

Has anyone experimented with dropping the clamps to allow some more fork tube on top? I don't see this as a dampening problem so much as it seems that across the board the bike squirms in turns unless you are super smooth and your steering inputs are made with your weight way forward. I do wonder about the tire selection.

 

First - my sense is that the instability problem on V11s is that the front end is too light. Other people have written that they get the best handling by balls to the tank and I notice the same thing, and placing your head about over the switch gear while leaned over, better to steer more with the body than overt countersteer.

Compared to my 93 Ducati 900SS, the Scura is a scary, nasty and unstable bike. I can't believe there is not some fundamental thing wrong here and hope someone has cured this problem.

 

mike lebow

 

Trouble at 110mph – and you add more throttle –

 

You'll find consensus here that the balance of the bike is too far back and that it's also awkward to shift a lot of weight forward in normal riding. With the more recent bikes, Guzzi made a point of saying that they have moved the engine forward.

 

Folk looking for improvement have indeed raised the forks and you'll find information in the Tech Topics Forum, probably mainly in the suspension set-up threads. Decent tyres are a big help too.

Mostly my Scura tries go have its own wicked way by spraying oil from a whole variety of different places – no matter where it comes from, it always ends up on the back tyre and often the back brake too. Slither.

[Paul Minnaert]

Mike, that's not an exerience I would like. But I owned an scura too. That bike is so stable, even without a steering damper in normal conditions there should't be any problem. After the first v11 sport, guzzi made the v11 le mans, and all never bikes like the scura longer and slower steering. So I think on your bike must be someting wrong. Wheel bearings, defective steering damper, lots of things, that I can't see from here. You were riding alone? But this way is no fun, I suggest find a proper shop that can look at the bike.

What is your weight? You can drop the forks 1/2 an inch, but without that it should be stable.

[pete roper]

Scuras are, by general consensus, undersprung. Get the suspension set up, check all the frame and wheel bearings and my advice would be to fit a slimmer tyre. The 180(?) section fitted to Scuras is far too fat IMHO Try a 170.

 

Pete

[dlaing]

I had a stability problem once.

It was caused by the rear tire.

But as Paul said, it could be a lot of other things.

As Pete said, get a 170tire.

[squidvicious]

Sell it to me, cheap. You don't want that m-fing piece of ...

[Greg Field]

I would guess you have a mechanical problem with the bike. First, check all the easy stuff such as tire pressures and for cupping on the tires. Then, here's what I would check:

 

1) Steering bearings. jack up the front end. Grab the fork lges just under the lower triple clamp and push forth and back and side to side while watching along the bearing joint for any perceptible play. Rotate it, too, and feel for notchy steering

 

2) Check for play or notchiness in the front wheel bearings, and then the rear bearings

 

3)Check for play in the swingarm bearings. To do it right, the wheel and drive and shock must be detached, so this is not a minor job.

[richard100t]

My bike was behaving in a very similar way. What I did was replace the stock springs with progressive rate springs. I noticed that from the factory the springs had almost no preload in them which caused my bike to have way too stiff forks to the point that they were like broomsticks. FWIW I never tried to get the preload right with the factory springs so I cant say that the oem stuff wont give you satisfaction.

 

I dont know what the setup for the Ohlins forks are, but it sure sounds like you're not getting much movement in the front. Even now if I turn up the compression & rebound too much my bike will behave almost exactly like what you describe yours is acting.

Check your sag settings to make sure you're getting enough movement in your forks.

Everyone elses advice about the bearings is worth checking into as well.

[Ouiji Veck]

WOW...this again.

Somethings wrong somewhere.

My last bike was a 94 900SS and my LeMans (with a 180 on back)

feels better than that did...and the Duc felt

real good. Looking forward to hearing a difinative

solution.

I'm short and 200lbs ..maybe thats a clue.

I'm nestled tight to the tank when I ride.

The LeMans has a longer WB too I think.

I hate tank slappers. Went over the bars once.

Had nightmares for months. A horrible way to get off.

Good luck getting it sorted.

Give the bearings a good look but I bet

it needs suspension set up.

[Guest ratchethack]

My Scura should now be charged with attempted murder.

Hmmmm. Unless you or someone you trust very much has properly set up your suspension FOR YOU, along with an explanation of exactly what he did so you at least understand the fundamentals, it might be more appropriate for YOU to be charged with a failed SUICIDE attempt, my friend.

 

Other than the steering damper, you didn't mention one word about suspension set-up. I've come to recognize exactly wot this means. . .

 

WHATEVER HAPPENED to the UNDERSTANDING that used to exist everywhere I knew of in motorcycling, that the FIRST order of business with any new machine is to properly set up the suspension to the rider??

 

If you DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN that your Guzzi's spring rates are properly matched to your weight and the kind of riding you do, and that front and rear sags are correctly set with preload -- and you ride the bike regardless of neglecting this, THIS IS THE MOTO EQUIVALENT OF PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETTE ON THE ROAD!

 

HINT: Many V11's (mine included) came from Mandello HOPELESSLY UNDERSPRUNG front and rear for average weight riders. Particularly if you are above average weight and IGNORE SUSPENSION SETUP, you have taken on the high risk of making yourself into a 2-wheeled SUICIDE BOMBER.

 

SUSPENSION SETUP IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF GUZZI, YOUR DEALER, OR YOUR MOTHER!

 

IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EVERY RIDER!!

 

Here are some links that I've found helpful that cover the basics:

 

http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html

 

http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm

 

This next link will be helpful once you've got the fundamentals dialed-in:

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

If you're capable and/or willing, this could not only transform your riding experience from a horror show into a great pleasure, it may well save your life and that of others on the road. If you're NOT capable and/or willing, for cryin' out loud, find a Pro WHO IS, and pay the man well to set up your suspension!!

 

Good luck, and vaya con Dios, mi compadre.

[Baldini]

Oh, it's here again...I replied in other thread...at length...

 

Failing any obvious defects: Suspension. Tyres. Riding style. Steering damper.

 

KB

 

Whaahaayyy! - I learned to cut & paste... :

 

just to clarify terms...

 

I've only ever had a tank-slapper once (& not on a Guzzi). It was so sudden & fierce I could barely keep my hands on the bars let alone vary my grip or control the throttle with any subtlety. A sudden, severe, very fierce, fast oscillation of the bars, bouncing between the steering locks. That's what you experienced? Rather than...

 

Scura shakes it's head sometimes over crests or off bumps, but settles down quickly. I also find Tontis do this.

 

Or....

 

The worst I had on the Scura was a severe weave when I could barely keep it on the carriageway. Very fast in a long turn, hit some dips & it was away. Like yours, it was uphill. It wandered slowly & repeatedly left to right across the road for what seemed forever but was probably between 50-100 yards, scared me sh**less! ...But this was not what you experienced?

 

Did you hit bumps?

 

Scura is a big, heavy bike w/rearward wt bias, crude rear suspension design using a v short s/a, & flexible frame. It will misbehave, if pushed hard. It is not a real sports bike. You have to ride within it's limitations. Smoothness is everything & any clumsy or sudden heavy inputs will unsettle it, inc hard changes, varying throttle in turns. However it is also fairly forgiving & if you can avoid hitting anything during the trauma it seems to settle....

 

It can be improved over stock. My Scura came very badly set up for me. Stock springs are v soft & will not work for anyone over about 170lbs. Have you sorted the suspension out for your weight & riding style (set sag)? If not I would look there first for the culprit. Pushed hard as it came to me, the Scura was a pig. It can be much improved but only by getting basics right: no amount of fiddling with damping will sort a basic set-up/spring problem.

 

I raised forks about half inch in clamps. Helped wt distribution & steering. But only after riding w/forks in stock position for fair long time. I don't believe that would cause or solve your problem.

 

I use only a little steering damper & vary it depending how I'm riding. The Ohlins damper is very subtle in it's adjustments & very effective. I don't see why you should need it fully wound on unless you are masking a different problem. I believe a lot of steering damping can actually cause steering/handling problems.

 

You're on BT020's? Not original ones? I found those tyres very unsatisfactory for quick riding. The front particularly, wears badly cupped & starts to feel very unstable in turns esp if theres any uneveness. Get rid if you're gonna ride like that, replace w/better tyres - you'll find a load of threads here on tyres. What pressures do you run?

 

Scura can be ridden reasonably fast on sorted suspension & good tyres, but has to be ridden the way it demands, not the way you might ride a 900SS.

 

Good luck.

 

KB

[stogieBill]

Mike,

 

Having owned a '95 SS 900 sp and now a Scura shod with Continental Road Attacks comparing the handling of the two is a no brainer. The Duc wanted to kill me too! I installed a Storz steering damper and , although that made a huge difference, there is still no comparison between the two. The Scura is on rails.

 

Advice from the more MG astute on this forum has been forthright, informative and usually, spot on.

 

If your tire pressures are correct, I have heard of the BbattleAxes having problems on other bikes, on other forums, ala tank slappers. If all else checks out okay, try a different tire.

 

Good luck

[pete roper]

Another thought. Is the driveshaft correctly alignsd?

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

This topic seems to be a familiar echo on this Forum. Two years ago when it came around again, I'd posted this:

 

Well, as long as we seem to be relating "tank slapper experiences", let me suggest as many variable factors I can think of, that in some combination with each other, can contribute to front-end oscillation.

 

In no particular order:

 

Air pressure, width, and aspect ratio of tires F & R, model of tires F & R, condition of tires F & R, match of tires (model, aspect ratio, width, condition, and pressure) between F & R, weight and riding position of rider, weight and placement of gear, match of fork spring rate to weight of rider and load, match of shock spring rate to weight of rider and load, condition of springs F & R (sacked-out or not, or somewhere between), F & R preload settings, condition of fork cartridges, condition of shock, match (F & R) of all fork and shock settings, setting of steering damper, condition of steering damper, F & R compression settings, F & R rebound settings, condition and/or adjustment of bearings (wheels, steering head, and swingarm), height setting of fork tubes in triples, amount and viscosity of fork oil, integrity (straightness and soundness) of frame, alignment of fork, alignment of swingarm, aerodynamics of luggage, aerodynamics of fairing, (I've undoubtedly missed at least a half-dozen more).

 

The point I'm attempting to make is, (again): If your bike is far enough out of whack in one of, or more than one of the above parameters in some combination to cause them to "conspire" in a particular way, a front-end oscillation is more than possible on (nearly) any bike - and I humbly suggest that this can happen virtually regardless of any OEM rake and trail (let's not even think about "long bikes" please?) And thank you.

 

So if somebody says they had a tank slapper and doesn't mention anything about how their bike is set up (or even if they do), I submit that this doesn't necessarily implicate the design of the motorcycle unless or until stuff like all of the above is fully taken into consideration and/or explored.

 

We had one rider a few years back recount an "event" where he suddenly lost control on a straight section of road. I think it's important to note that he didn't mention a thing about fork oscillation before the crash, nor did he mention suspension set-up, or even one of the above parameters. His post indicated only that he suddenly found himself doing the 50 meter macadam backstroke.

 

Yet in the ensuing forum discussion, this experience was characterized by himself and by others as "a problem" with the bike. The implication was that there was an "inherent problem" with the rake and/or trail of the frame of that particular model Guzzi, which happened to be a short-frame 2000 Sport (same as mine). The guy wound up selling his Guzzi. By the time he did this, I'm sure he had become convinced there was an "inherent tank-slapper problem" due to the design of the short-frame bikes.

 

I've seen lots of incredibly dumb things done to motorcycles, in some cases stupid enough to be life-threatening. Let's face it - there are many riders who don't understand the first thing about how to set up their bikes, let alone how to keep it all in a safe balance... How hard is it to imagine that someone who doesn't even know enough to know that there are important things he doesn't know (got that?) might in fact have caused his own problem? (OPERATOR ERROR!) A rider without a basic understanding of motorcycle setup fundamentals is a danger not only to himself, but to everyone on the road.

 

I call foul!

 

By all means - Fire at will, Gents.

[Guest drknow]

My Scura should now be charged with attempted murder.

 

This is a cry for help, so I'll cry and hope someone will help. My 02' Scura tried to kill me on Saturday. I've had it a year and 6k. It has 10.5 k on it and Bridgestone Battle Axes. I have turned the dampner up, way up. Logically, it cannot be from the dampner. From the get go I thought it was twitchy but I liked the quick steering. As I ride it harder, I noticed that on a hard upshift it would shake its head a bit as the front got lighter. I did not like this. Saturday, I was working through the gears on a slight up-grade and when I shifted into 5th or 6th, at about 110 mph, on a clean two lane Ontario road in the country, it began The Royal Tank Slapper. I mean a real one. If you have never experienced one of these, you really can't imagine how much fun they are on a public road with fence posts utility poles, traffic...

 

I followed the Code method of resisting "survival" responses, kept my hands super light on the bars, - no help - I added a little throttle - no help and a sense that the famous last words ("oh shit") might be coming, I rolled off a bit worrying that putting some more weight on the front would make things worse and I'd be pitched off for sure, but it calmed down. The first words inside my helmet were something like "you m-f piece of ... I am killing you and selling what's left", but... I really love it... I also notice that on on and off ramps it wobbles in and out, like others notice.

 

Has anyone experimented with dropping the clamps to allow some more fork tube on top? I don't see this as a dampening problem so much as it seems that across the board the bike squirms in turns unless you are super smooth and your steering inputs are made with your weight way forward. I do wonder about the tire selection.

 

First - my sense is that the instability problem on V11s is that the front end is too light. Other people have written that they get the best handling by balls to the tank and I notice the same thing, and placing your head about over the switch gear while leaned over, better to steer more with the body than overt countersteer.

Compared to my 93 Ducati 900SS, the Scura is a scary, nasty and unstable bike. I can't believe there is not some fundamental thing wrong here and hope someone has cured this problem.

 

mike lebow

 

Mine did exactly this. The only thing that fixed it was going with spring rates that weren't for bulemic cheerleaders. That solved most of the problem, but you'll need a fork revalve as well to eliminate it.

 

dk