moscowphil Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Haven't really got an answer for you I'm afraid - as far as i know it is not a common fault on Scuras or any other Guzzis. But looking at the problem logically might help you track it down. The starter motor needs to draw a lot of current to turn the engine, and the fact that it is struggling means that somewhere in the circuit there is some resistance which shouldn't be there, which is limiting the current flow. (I'm assuming the battery is OK). This resistance could be on either the positive side, or the earth return, so you need to check both. Possible places where resistance can occur on the positive side are (1) where the thick starter lead is attached to the battery (2) where the starter lead is attached to the solenoid (3) Inside the solenoid itself (corroded contacts) (4) the connection between the output from the solenoid and the starter motor itself. First of all check all of these (apart from inside the solenoid) to make sure there is no corrosion and no loose contacts. Then do the same for the return path - the starter earths through the engine and then frame, before going back to the battery via the earth strap. So possible places where resistance could occur are - (A) starter not earthing to engine properly (only likely if starter motor bolts are loose) ( Engine not earthing to frame properly (only likely if engine is falling out!) © Connection between earth lead and frame (I can't remember where this is on the Scura, but easy to find I imagine) (D) connection between earth lead and battery. If you've checked all this lot and still not found a fault, you are left, by a process of elimination, wth just the starter solenoid or the brushes in the starter motor itself. I have to say neither of these sounds very likely on a 5 year old bike, though I have just had to replace the solenoid on my 35 year old VW camper to cure exactly the same symptoms as you have described. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GED 01 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 im taking the starter out tomorrow and have a good look ive just been reading the following http://www.largiader.com/tech/valeo/ http://www.airheads.org/content/view/210/98/ http://home.clara.net/hallvw/starter.htm the last link give a trouble shooter table ,ive read through it and it points at both the starter and solenoid ie plunger engaging starter failing to turn sluggish or no action starter and the causes why ,all of which i will look at tomorrow, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macguzzi Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 as said before my solinoid clicked but was kaput also check insulators on brushes, at rear of starter insulation between spring and brush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GED 01 Posted December 15, 2007 Author Share Posted December 15, 2007 as said before my solinoid clicked but was kaput also check insulators on brushes, at rear of starter insulation between spring and brush to be honest ive just made it out of me bed ,,,ive been struck down with the mother of all colds/flu,,,,,,,,,so ive not been able to do anything with the guzz,,,but ive pretty much resigned myself that it could be the solonoid,,i will have more of an idea next week when im fit and able to have a proper look ,,,,cheers for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GED 01 Posted December 16, 2007 Author Share Posted December 16, 2007 right well im back in good health [almost] so i had a good look at the bike ... checked the battery wires all leads at the battery terminals are ok no corrosion or anything that may cause concern,the leads that conect to the starter are also ok ,as is the earth strap from the frame to the battery, tested the battery as advised b4,battery been on charge 24hr maximiser showing that the battery is in full state of charge and in good condition and able to hold charge multimeter shows 12.92v switched lights on for 3mins then left them off for 5min meter now showing 12.6v "is this ok"?? removed starter completly stripped down it was full of carbon crap and needed a clean bushes and magnets ok,nothing really wrong with anything apart from it needing a good clean,,,NOW when i looked at the brush retaining collar the thing that feels like its made from bakalite there was a crack half way across now how much this would have an effect on holding the brushes against the comutator i dont know ,so i will order a new ring and brushes tomorow until i get the parts theres not much else i can do,,, the only other thing i want to ask is there any sort of test to determin if the solenoid is u/s or the starter ????cheers 4 now i will keep you all posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzirider Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'm just 20 miles away in Huddersfield- I have a spare solenoid if you want to borrow it to see if yours is faulty. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GED 01 Posted December 17, 2007 Author Share Posted December 17, 2007 cheers guy i might take you up on that ,,,maybe next week,i have ordered a repair kit for £18 from moto meca includes brush retainer spring brushes and a couple of other bits,i was also informed that they are strugling to find a solenoid which is bad news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzirider Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 No prob- just drop me a PM and we'll sort something out- I will be away from Sunday until New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pasotibbs Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 cheers guy i might take you up on that ,,,maybe next week,i have ordered a repair kit for £18 from moto meca includes brush retainer spring brushes and a couple of other bits,i was also informed that they are strugling to find a solenoid which is bad news Someone here said that the starter was the same as a Fiat Cinquecento /Seicento, I've been meaning to take the starter off my Cinq to see if its true but there are plenty in breakers if you have chance to check it out.(there are 2 types of engine 900cc and 1100cc so maybe 2 types of starter !) Another alternative could be to use a remote solenoid and bypass the solenoid on the starter ? My Ducati uses one but I'm not sure how much current it can take so maybe one from a car would do .http://www.powersportspro.com/pages/catalogs/viewhotitemdetail/17/291/994/17917/1/0/1/0/0/0/0/0/starter-solenoids.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GED 01 Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 i to have heard that the valeo starter is fiited to cars ,the fiat panda is one that seems to spring to mind,also i have heard alfa romeo but which ones i dont know????? but thanks for the cinqi tip it will be worth following it up,last night i had a look on flea bay and the cost of a toyota valeo starter £35 compared to the guzzi valeo at £250 makes me wonder if were not being made mugs of,,,i dont suppose anyone has a part number for the scura stater motor ??????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 You can get a complete overhaul kit from the Valeo agent in the UK. I have the info somewhere but not right to hand provided my wife hasn't thrown it out! Cost is reasonable as I recall. Remote solenoid is not practical as the piggyback solenoid not only switches on the high current from the battery it also mechanically engages the pinion with the ring gear. Remote solenoids were used with the old "bendix" type inertial starter clutches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pasotibbs Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 i to have heard that the valeo starter is fiited to cars ,the fiat panda is one that seems to spring to mind,also i have heard alfa romeo but which ones i dont know????? but thanks for the cinqi tip it will be worth following it up,last night i had a look on flea bay and the cost of a toyota valeo starter £35 compared to the guzzi valeo at £250 makes me wonder if were not being made mugs of,,,i dont suppose anyone has a part number for the scura stater motor ??????????? The 900cc Cinq's has a Panda engine and gearbox so could be the one to look for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pasotibbs Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Remote solenoid is not practical as the piggyback solenoid not only switches on the high current from the battery it also mechanically engages the pinion with the ring gear. Remote solenoids were used with the old "bendix" type inertial starter clutches. I missed that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzijack Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Someone here said that the starter was the same as a Fiat Cinquecento /Seicento, I've been meaning to take the starter off my Cinq to see if its true but there are plenty in breakers if you have chance to check it out.(there are 2 types of engine 900cc and 1100cc so maybe 2 types of starter !)Another alternative could be to use a remote solenoid and bypass the solenoid on the starter ? My Ducati uses one but I'm not sure how much current it can take so maybe one from a car would do .http://www.powersportspro.com/pages/catalogs/viewhotitemdetail/17/291/994/17917/1/0/1/0/0/0/0/0/starter-solenoids.aspx If it's the same as other big twin Guzzis - why wouldn't it be - it's a Valeo DR6A. If you do a Google search there are lots of cross-references to automobile use from Fiats to Citroens via Opels and Renaults but you may have to swap over the cogs as not all will match, although the motor body and windings appear to be the same. Here's a description of how to do that Rebuild and swap GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GED 01 Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 spent a couple of hours reading up on the valeo starter,ive either got a D6RA20 OR D6RA21 one is later than the other but the differences may be,i cannot find any references of this part number fitted to any car and believe me i looked,but on the plus side i did find a place in the states that is selling them for $225 which is abiut £120 for a complete "new"of the shelf starter not a refurb,which is a bargain ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so if the bits ive already ordered for the solenoid doesnt fix the prob then i will more than likely order of these chaps,and if a new starter doesnt cure it then im off to by a buell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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