HaydnR Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Had a closer look at the vents on my tank today. I think the vents on the U.S. bikes may differ a little due to having a different cap and the vapour recover system. The tubes inside the tank looked fairly rigid,I was wondering if they were not originally like that and have hardened over time,I wasn't going to take the cap off to investigate. I'm thinking that if it's not a bloked breather then maybe one of the tubes inside your tank has got damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hmm I typically fill to the lowest part of the inner opening, so it is almost touching the bottom of the fuel cap vent when fully inserted. I can't imagine it has overflowed to the outer opening where the overfill is but who knows, something isnt right obviously. I wonder if you are correct and the hose has deteriorated to the point where fuel is getting directly into the hose inside the tank. Your initial diagram had me scratching my head as I could not identify from what part of the tank I was looking at, the one you posted here is easier for me to follow Thanks So if I have this right the overfill drain is on the right which connects to that tube you show and then connects to the spiggot on the left. On mine the spiggot does not currently have a tube under the tank to route it from the spiggot to below the bike but rather just opens up right above the cylinder, which makes me believe it was not replaced after the service I had... however someone else mentioned theres does not have one either, does yours? Seems hard to believe that an fuel overflow spiggot would just release over a cylinder and spark plug by design. Are any of the internals to the tank replaceable? I cant imagine how you would replace parts inside there. My initial problem was the leak being under the bike, if I understand correctly the left hand vent goes to the right hand spiggot which routes through a tube to under the bike. So the intital problem was probably gas going through the left vent but has now apparently changed to gas going through the right overflow, is it possible that the internal pipes within the tank were swapped? I'll take a look inside when I get home and see if mine is as you showed here. Still trading phone calls with the shop that did the original work but not getting anywhere... may have to pick up a backup bike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 You must have had some real dumbasses messing with your bike. Mine is a 2003 with an external pump so I don't know the EVAP or emission setup on your bike. I will look at some manuals to see if there is anything in them. All jokes aside, are you capable of R&R of this tank ? The fuel pump module will have to come out (uh, after the tank removal and removing the fuel) for you to understand which hose goes where... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnR Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Out of interest post a picture of your gas cap open so I can figure how the u.s. differ. I would personally remove the tank to check it out. You need to identify that the tank breather is clear and if the internal hoses are in place. It can be simply done by attaching a piece of hose and blowing through and see where it comes out. If you don't need the vapour recover system and one or both hoses within the tank are damaged or un-repairable the bottom vents could be blocked off and cap modified to vent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Out of interest post a picture of your gas cap open so I can figure how the u.s. differ. I would personally remove the tank to check it out. You need to identify that the tank breather is clear and if the internal hoses are in place. It can be simply done by attaching a piece of hose and blowing through and see where it comes out. If you don't need the vapour recover system and one or both hoses within the tank are damaged or un-repairable the bottom vents could be blocked off and cap modified to vent. Okay I am going to make another attempt this week to speak to someone at this shop and if I cant get a decent answer I'll start digging in myself. I have been hesitant to do so because I want to bring it back to them exactly as they left it so there isn't any question who did what but its looking like they do not have any interest in trying to fix it, just telling me they will try to get a warranty replacement. Meanwhile the bike sits and my yearly 2k trek is coming up in a couple months. I'll take some pictures and upload those. All jokes aside, are you capable of R&R of this tank ? The fuel pump module will have to come out (uh, after the tank removal and removing the fuel) for you to understand which hose goes where... The only ideas they provided me up to this point was maybe the hoses had been swapped, they have never mentioned checking for blockages so I am beginning to question their competence, or perhaps its interest, in diagnosing the problem. They stated almost immediately my tank was deformed and I think they have just gone down the ethanol issue path without trying anything else. In any event they made it worse to the point I cant ride it now. I am not sure if I am capable of a rip&replace(?) I have done some carb work on my dirtbike but other than changing the oil on this one I have had a hands off approach, I'll have to try to find a better manual than what I have today if I am going to do this without making things worse. Looks like I may be busy in the garage this weekend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Here are the pics of my tank: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 I would guess that your breather pipe (connects at 'e' in top photo) is blocked either inside the tank or the hose is blocked or kinked. If your fuel vapour system ( I take it is a US bike) was connected as it should have been to point f (the part that is now leaking) and the breather was blocked this would have caused the vacuum inside the tank as the vapour system uses the vacuum points on the inlet manifolds to suck vapours from the tank. It now seems that the shop has disconnected the vapour system so the suction has stopped but with the breather blocked the tank is pressurising which is causing the leak that you now have.Maybe. Took the tank off today and now this diagram makes complete sense to me, thanks! There is a hose that was left unattached to 'F' after I took the bike into the shop (Moto Italiano in Santa Cruz), since I now know this was a complete F-up on their part and they ignored me after I sent the info that would have shown them they screwed up I now have no problem letting folks know who it was. So the leak never moved they just didnt attach the hose that routes the fuel to the bottom of the bike... away from the hot sparky stuff, not a very important connection for them i guess Okay over that for now, so I have tested the the two outlets 'F' and 'E', using a straw I blow air through 'F' just fine but 'E' I cannot. I disconnected the line, all that was left was a hose connected to a spigot on the tank and a black cylinder shaped object (Rollover valve?) connecting that hose to another hose. I can blow through both hoses but I cannot blow or suck air through the Rollover Valve(?) What is this thing for and should I be able to blow air through it? Do I even need it? Thanks for all the info you guys have provided, it made everything pretty clear once I had the balls to take off the tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 So after further review, I noticed that in the diagram below the to cannister end was actually facing the tank on my bike (the hose on the left was gong to the tank). Unfugging believeable, they didnt put it back on the tank correctly AND they didnt connect the other hose to the bottom of the bike... in affect they setup the bike to kill me!!!!! So I am able to blow through from the cannister end to the tank end if I blow real hard... repeated blows after that initial clearing is easy, however if I blow in the opposite direction (tank to cannister) it gets blocked and no air will go that way... I then have to blow hard again (trying not to giggle as I explain how hard I blow) to clear it. It appears that the device is meant to draw air from the cannister into the tank until the pressure builds up enough that the tank then tries to push it back down the tube, the rollover valve prevents it from being sent back 'E' to the cannister (when that happens the air is then expelled through the 'F' spiggot I guess?) So does is this the expected operation of the rollover valve, should it be that hard to blow back through from cannister to tank or should it be a more effortless operation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 Apparently this topic has come up before, but never showed up in my searches until I tried Rollover Valve: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12071&st=15 So I guess the answer is you can do without it and risk fuel leaking if the bike goes down or you can try to connect it properly and then strap it down upside down so the valve actually works... guess I will give the latter a try first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Man this issue taught me alot, first and foremost don't be a puss... I was so worried I would trash something on my bike I was afraid to take off the tank. I posted a lot of misconceptions on here as I went through this issue so if anyone reads this down the line ignore everything I was thinking as I went through this, but listen to what all the other guys were saying So here is how I now understand the issue, hopefully this is correct: On a US bike without pad the left side spiggot is the overflow, it MUST have a tube connected to it that routes the potential fluid overflow down the bike and out the bottom. If it is not there most likely it has fallen off or some tard didn't reattach when they put the tank on, without this fuel will leak onto your cyclinder not far from your spark plugs. The right side spiggot on US bikes without pad goes to a charcoal cannister under your bike just in front of the rear wheel, the system is there for a couple of reasons one of which is a tipover safety mechanism to keep fuel from leaking out the tank in the event of a tipover. There is line from the right hand spiggot on the tank going to a black Rollover Valve, the other end of the rollover valve goes to another line that routes to the cannister below the bike. The long end of the Rollover Valve should be connected to the cannister line, short end to the tank. HOWEVER the long side must be facing up towards the tank, this is counter intuitive and seems to require adding longer lines to accomplish this, this is so the piece inside the rollover valve will fall down towards the short end allowing air to be pulled in from the cannister. If the valve is flipped the other way (short side up) gravity will pull the device inside to the long end and block it up (this is the tipover feature of the valve). I have tested this and here are my results: Long end facing up- Blow from long end to short and air passes through easily, blow from short to long and no air passes (perhaps under more pressure it could) Short end facing up- Blow from short to long and no air passes, blow from long to short and no air passes (again perhaps more pressure would enable it sporadically) I will post up my results once I have purchased the hoses and clamps to complete this, and whomever called those white and red fuel connectors 'quick connects' should be forced to spend his time in hell trying to fit a square peg in a round hole... with a hot poker shoved up his a$$! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Your last statement appears to have a bit of hostility........... If it makes you feel better, we have ALL been there. Don't be too pissed, there will be something else to eclipse this soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Your last statement appears to have a bit of hostility........... If it makes you feel better, we have ALL been there. Don't be too pissed, there will be something else to eclipse this soon! Merely an attempt at humor, aimed at whoever design that contraption and referred to it as "quick"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 So, I realize one hose is simply a drain in the event you overfill the tank during fueling directing the overflow onto the tarmac (certainly un-good to drop that onto the top of your motor). I believe that's the big hole at eight o'clock on the left side under your gas cap. The other side allows air flow back into the tank while keeping the vapors from the atmosphere through the carbon cannisters and preventing "tip-over" spill with the nefarious little valve. I, uh, "inspected" my 2000 Sport's vapor recovery system. The canisters and plumbing weighed five pounds and there is twenty feet of half inch fuel line. No, really: twenty feet. I am sorry to report that my Sport has been on its side two or three times yet, even without the "tip-over valve," no fuel spilled. Both hoses will "Y" nicely together and route out the bottom. They are a (difficult female dog) to re-attach when replacing the tank, so I can see hourly employees giving it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaydnR Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Thanks for your update and pictures, I cant see obvious differences in the U.S fuel cap. Well done for getting stuck in. Oh those (not so) quick disconnects are such fun, maybe I should have posted these: What I don't understand just now is why your tank is leaking fuel in the first place, did you test that the pipes within the tank were intact (by attaching hose to spigot under tank and blowing whilst blocking the outlet vent in cap? Withou any hoses attached to either of the spigots the tank should not leak fuel unless tipped right over My head is mince just now but I will re-read and digest later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geddo Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Thanks for your update and pictures, I cant see obvious differences in the U.S fuel cap. Well done for getting stuck in. Oh those (not so) quick disconnects are such fun, maybe I should have posted these: LOL, I wish I could have done it that easily. I don't think I could generate the force that was necessary to get those things off, I had to pry needle nose pliers to generate the leverage to get them off... the red was tough but the white was a PIA. What I don't understand just now is why your tank is leaking fuel in the first place, did you test that the pipes within the tank were intact (by attaching hose to spigot under tank and blowing whilst blocking the outlet vent in cap? Withou any hoses attached to either of the spigots the tank should not leak fuel unless tipped right over Yeah i don't quite understand the physics involved in the tank being starved of relief pressure, resulting tank suck, followed by a leak. Seems it should be trying to draw air in from the overflow vent not push fuel out I tried blowing through both vents with a straw while blocking the spiggot and I could not pass air through it, perhaps there is a defect that is only exposed when the tank is depressurized... I used to get the tank whoosh when I opened fuel cap after riding or on hot days. Hopefully I will now be able to get rid of that either by using the upside down rollover or just remove the thing all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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