Suspension

[cash1000]

I've been searching for some way to upgrade the suspension on my RM.

I was about to purchase Hyper Pro shock and front springs from Austraila because they where the only option that was within my budget and available within the New Zealand and Australia. I spoke to a mate who suggested I try the local Ohlins agent. I thought they would be to expensive. It turns out they are not.

Their response was

 

REAR ( Sachs ) SHOCK   The actual bones of these shocks isn’t too bad, many of the internal parts are a close copy of Ohlins but the settings and spring rate selection are not so flash. And given your roads in the Christchurch area ( was there over the weekend ) I can understand where you are coming from. What we do in an instance like this is to change the spring for a more suitable rate and happily Ohlins springs fit straight on Sachs. We then pull the shock apart and instal an Ohlins piston and valving into it. Ohlins make a shock for the V11 as oem supply to Moto Guzzi, given that the body tube internal diameter is the same from Ohlins to Sachs we can replicate an Ohlins type feel and compliance into that shock. The whole job if you send us the shock amounts to around $650. Were an Ohlins available for it as aftermarket supply it would be around $2000.

 

FRONT FORKS   I was hoping you were going to say Showa or Sachs as opposed to Marzocchi. These will likely have progressively wound springs that are too light in start rate but then way too aggressive in end rate. So changing the springs alone in a linear wind rate appropriate to you with careful selection of oil viscosity, airgap and spring preload will yield a decent bang for buck result. About $450 to $500. BUT, in an ideal world the cartridges would be pulled apart and the pistons assessed as to whether they can be revalved or absolutely have to be replaced to attain the flow rates required. What concerns me is the very distinct possibility that these are swaged together sealed for life cartridges. Research info is pretty sketchy for many of these Italian bikes, if you have ready access to an exploded parts diagram for the front forks that you could e-mail to me I can then furnish a better answer.

 

What do you all think of his ideas?

[Tom M]

Hi Cash,

Rebuilding the Sachs shock with Ohlins internals sounds good if the guy really knows what he's doing.  Swapping springs shouldn't be difficult or expensive.  Keep in mind that some here have had the mounting eye on their Sachs shock crack.

 

The Marz fork cartridges aren't crimped together but I don't know of anyone who has revalved them.  A while back a member here sent their forks to RaceTech to see what they could do with them.  They said they couldn't revalve them but could install their ATK cartidges for about $1000 US.  I believe somebody else here had Maxton in the UK rework their forks with good results.

 

I actually have my forks taken apart right now while I'm waiting for new seals and I have some pictures of my disassembled compression side cartridge that I should be able to post tomorrow.  They might help your guy decide if he can do something with them or not. 

 

You can buy straight rate springs for the forks for about $100 over here and make them work pretty well by doing just what he suggested; pick the right viscosity oil and set the preload and air gap for your weight and riding style.

 

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

edit: here's the compression cartridge pic

 

 

[Lucky Phil]

I've been searching for some way to upgrade the suspension on my RM.

I was about to purchase Hyper Pro shock and front springs from Austraila because they where the only option that was within my budget and available within the New Zealand and Australia. I spoke to a mate who suggested I try the local Ohlins agent. I thought they would be to expensive. It turns out they are not.

Their response was

 

REAR ( Sachs ) SHOCK   The actual bones of these shocks isn’t too bad, many of the internal parts are a close copy of Ohlins but the settings and spring rate selection are not so flash. And given your roads in the Christchurch area ( was there over the weekend ) I can understand where you are coming from. What we do in an instance like this is to change the spring for a more suitable rate and happily Ohlins springs fit straight on Sachs. We then pull the shock apart and instal an Ohlins piston and valving into it. Ohlins make a shock for the V11 as oem supply to Moto Guzzi, given that the body tube internal diameter is the same from Ohlins to Sachs we can replicate an Ohlins type feel and compliance into that shock. The whole job if you send us the shock amounts to around $650. Were an Ohlins available for it as aftermarket supply it would be around $2000.

 

FRONT FORKS   I was hoping you were going to say Showa or Sachs as opposed to Marzocchi. These will likely have progressively wound springs that are too light in start rate but then way too aggressive in end rate. So changing the springs alone in a linear wind rate appropriate to you with careful selection of oil viscosity, airgap and spring preload will yield a decent bang for buck result. About $450 to $500. BUT, in an ideal world the cartridges would be pulled apart and the pistons assessed as to whether they can be revalved or absolutely have to be replaced to attain the flow rates required. What concerns me is the very distinct possibility that these are swaged together sealed for life cartridges. Research info is pretty sketchy for many of these Italian bikes, if you have ready access to an exploded parts diagram for the front forks that you could e-mail to me I can then furnish a better answer.

 

What do you all think of his ideas?

I have a full spec Wilbers shock ( high and low speed compression adj and rebound with remote preload adjuster) fitted to my V11 bought here in Aus for if I recall about $1300. I have Ohlins fitted to my other Ducati's (1198, ST2, 1000ss) and the Wilbers is a least as good in quality. It was a bespoke unit made for my weight and riding. Well worth the money.

Ciao 

[gavo]

Hi cash, This is nearly the same as my suspension man said, we replaced the sach spring with a more appropriate one and he played with the internals and regassed ,all up $450 from memory, works well, as for the front new springs and 5wt oil work ok at the start but after 2years the springs have sagged so I'll try again with a different brand spring

[LowRyter]

Hi Cash,

Rebuilding the Sachs shock with Ohlins internals sounds good if the guy really knows what he's doing.  Swapping springs shouldn't be difficult or expensive.  Keep in mind that some here have had the mounting eye on their Sachs shock crack.

 

The Marz fork cartridges aren't crimped together but I don't know of anyone who has revalved them.  A while back a member here sent their forks to RaceTech to see what they could do with them.  They said they couldn't revalve them but could install their ATK cartidges for about $1000 US.  I believe somebody else here had Maxton in the UK rework their forks with good results.

 

I actually have my forks taken apart right now while I'm waiting for new seals and I have some pictures of my disassembled compression side cartridge that I should be able to post tomorrow.  They might help your guy decide if he can do something with them or not. 

 

You can buy straight rate springs for the forks for about $100 over here and make them work pretty well by doing just what he suggested; pick the right viscosity oil and set the preload and air gap for your weight and riding style.

 

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

Tom, I've got the Race Tech "gold valve" fork kit & springs on my Suzuki Bandit. Made a huge differnce.  I was surprised they offer no kit for the Guzzi Marchozzi forks.  I've never heard of ATK cartridges, can you elaborate or cite the thread?

 

Having said all this, I am pretty satisfied with my V11 Sport "as is".  Seems to handle very well.  I'll say one of the best bikes in the curves I've ridden.  Mine has as handle bar conversion which provides good leverage.  I've not touched the set up since I picked up the bike in August.

[Tom M]

Tom, I've got the Race Tech "gold valve" fork kit & springs on my Suzuki Bandit. Made a huge differnce.  I was surprised they offer no kit for the Guzzi Marchozzi forks.  I've never heard of ATK cartridges, can you elaborate or cite the thread?

 

Having said all this, I am pretty satisfied with my V11 Sport "as is".  Seems to handle very well.  I'll say one of the best bikes in the curves I've ridden.  Mine has as handle bar conversion which provides good leverage.  I've not touched the set up since I picked up the bike in August.

 

Hi LR,

I know there were threads in the past on this, don't have a link handy right now.  It was Traxxion Dynamics, not RaceTech, that had the ATK damping cartridges (which are now called AK-20).  I bought fork springs fromTD even though they aren't listed on their website.  They told me that they didn't have a damping kit for our 'zokes forks but they could install the ATK cartridges.

http://www.traxxion.com/AK-20AxxionCartridgeKit.aspx

 

I'm fairly happy with the way my forks work after changing the springs, preload spacers, oil viscosities and air spring height a few years back.  As Guzzimoto has pointed out in other fork threads the compression cartridge's design is a little quirky.  He made a change and liked the results.  I'm going to try something similar while mine is apart waiting for new fork seals.  I'll start another thread on that.

[cash1000]

Good to here we are on the right track. The guy I'm using has a very good reputation in NZ. Does suspension setup for top road race teams here.

I'm sending the shock and front forks to him in about 3 weeks. Will let you know results when I get them back.

[PDoz]

Before spending $650 on the original sachs shock with the potential to crack the eye, have a very serous think about wilburs. The base model unit with rebound only adjustment is $768 ( oz) it'll come with the correct spring for you and a dampening stack designed for you. It's about $1100 to go for the one with high / low speed adjustment. I spent the extra $400 and haven't touched the adjusters, and given how good the roads near you are I doubt you'd need to. If you want to try before you buy I'm happy to fly mine over, fit it and go for a short test ride " just to make sure it's right"..because I'm a nice guy...say a couple of laps of the south island....

 

In all seriousness, the wilburs is at least as good as an ohlins .

 

http://www.asr.com.au/easytable/4-high-end-shock-price-list.html

[dale-j]

Cash, please post up what the results are... in particular if your suspension tuner was able to work with the forks.  I have asked locally here (RMR Suspension in Abbotsford, BC who is a Traxxion installer and Ohlins dealer) and been told that on the non-adjustable Marzocchis fitted to the 03 and newer bikes, the cartridges are swaged together and are non-serviceable.  No internal rebuilds, no gold valves.    Apparently the options are to stick with setting up spring rate, preload/sag, oil viscosity and oil volume/air gap, or to replace the cartridges with the CAD$1200+ AK-20 kit.  It seems a lot to spend but if it improves the sharp hits as well as the weave and wallow it might be worth it...  best solution would be if you can confirm that the forks will take a gold valve kit though!!

 

Steve

[luhbo]

Rebuilding/Overhauling the Sachs shock is a good option. I had mine done at HH Racetech here in Germany. He also mounted a hydraulic height adjustement (for going two up), a different spring and a different eye, and I'm really pleased with how this shock works now. If I remember right all this cost me around 500,- Euros.

Hubert

[68C]

_{Please give a bit more detail about the 'hydraulic height adjustment' Lubho.   (don't know why I cannot correct this tiny font !)}

[luhbo]

_{...  (don't know why I cannot correct this tiny font !)}

 

It's the virus, now trying to humiliate you as he's done your pc 

 

The system looks 95% the same as on this picture (different colours, of course):

 

 

Funny enough it tried the same with me now I guess. I really had to trick the site to show the above picture as a direct link

I'm using IE8 (for still XP), maybe that's how they named it

 

Hubert

[cash1000]

Hi 

 

Got Forks & Shock back. All fitted and feels great. Sits on road well. no more getting jared by forks or rear shock when hitting bumps. Tracks round courners. Can lean into courners now with out fear of hitting a bump  and front  end getting deflected off line.

Cost in the end was close to $NZ2000

 

This is what they did

 

Description Of Work Done

Shock Absorber (Sachs)

 

Respring shock absorber

Dyno test to establish standard damping curves.  Fit Ohlins piston and valving and dyno test.  Successfully change valving and re dyno test to match Ohlins force curves for that model.  Replace seal had.

 

Forks

Pull apart and assess.

Replace fork seals and respring.  Fit new preload spacer tubes and guides to match.  Modify pistons and valve to improve chassis pitch control and bump absorption quality.

 

I used  Robert Taylor of Kiwi Suspensions Solutions to do the above work.

Contact details are

Kiwi Suspension Solutions Ltd
Ph: (+64) 06-751 2100

Fax: (+64) 06-751 4551
Email: admin@kss.net.nz