Odyssey PC545 Battery conditioning

[68C]

If these Odyssey batteries are so fussy why use them? My Rosso Corsa seems happy on a generic sealed battery, perhaps fashion has ruled here. You could have two standard batts for the price, one on the bike and one on float charge as a backup, or sitting unfilled as an emergency item.

[docc]

I don't think they're as fussy as I've made out. Guzzi2Go makes this point very well, I think.

 

Others have also posted various simpler methods that have carried their Odyssey for many years.

 

Yet, for those who struggle with their charging system, store the bike for extended periods, or use chargers with inadequate voltage, knowing more about the design and requirements is (hopefully) going to make the battery more reliable and last longer.

 

At the beginning of the thread, I was hoping to figure out how to use my menagerie of old chargers to good effect. What transpired has been quite an ongoing education. Well, that and the EnerSys OMAX charger I ended up with. It takes all the fuss out since it runs the algorithm automatically.

[Guzzi2Go]

None of my low amp chargers have adequate float voltage (13.5-13.8). They are all below the 13.2v threshold stated to be damaging to the plates.

 

So much of Odyssey's presentation is about deep discharge applications rather than our SIL use (Start-Ignition-Lights). Yet, those charging protocols would be most applicable when we have let our battery get quite low from sitting too long ?

Maybe you just caught them at bad time. Charging process goes through different stages, so if you measured too early the battery would still be low or too late and then the maintenance mode would kick in and charger would just be sitting there waiting for the battery to discharge a bit before it starts charging again. 

 

And yes, battery guys build their batteries to repetitively drive serious load over longish periods or to be constantly prepared for that. Hence the discussion on how to charge quickly and how to keep them charged. Starter battery in service is neither discharged nor charged "by the book". Whatever chargers can do to a battery is nothing compared with what starter and regulator are doing,

[docc]

So, my low power chargers are quite old (I have two left), and both float at ~13.19v over the several batteries I monitor. For a couple years I kept extensive charts on the different chargers and how well each of my five AGM (and two flooded electrolyte batteries) held their SOC. While still only qualifying me as "a poor scientist (Dr. Venkman )", I learned that my low power chargers were not the best for the AGM.

 

I believe I posted that the best results I was getting was about 82% (I'd have to look back at that derivation to see why I quantified the results in that way). Now, this still made for good batteries that lasted into their ninth year. but with a little extra effort and attention to the amperage/voltage requirements, the AGM (VRLA) perform into the 90th percentile and hold their SOC notably longer during static discharge. One of my hair-brained theories is that maintaining a higher SOC with the charger will be easier on the V11 charging system. Does this stand to reason in practice? IDK

 

Guzzi2Go, what is the voltage shown while you use your 1 amp charger?

[Guzzi2Go]

Well, it depends...

 

Day before yesterday I got a new battery, which measured 12.6V as delivered, corresponding to the 75% SoC, as per little paper that came with it.

 

I hooked it up to the charger and measured, 'twas 12.9V.

 

I left it like that for 5-6 hours, when I came back, the maintenance lamp was on and the voltage measured 13.2V.

 

I disconnected the battery and left it over night, when I came back it was 12.8V. Connected it to the charger again and after 2 hours it was 13.6V after an hour more it was 13.9V.

 

Here is what my charger's manual says about the cycle:

• the charger starts in constant current mode (1A), and waits for the battery to rise to 14,3V
• then it holds the voltage at 14,3V until the current drops below 100mA
• then it starts a battery test by loading the battery with a "defined current" (which is nowhere defined , they probably mean a "reference current" ). If the voltage drops below certain level (due to high internal resistance), this is interpreted as excessive sulfate buildup and a recovery mode is started
• in the recovery mode the charger loads the battery with a current pulse of 80A for 100µs, followed by a charge current limited to 330mA and voltage limited to 14,3V, so here it may well be that the voltage remains below 14,3 for a while. This goes on for an hour.
• After this recovery mode is finished, a new charging run is started, followed by a test. If the test fails, the battery is faultly (there is a LED for that).
• If the battery is fine, the charger will maintain 13,8V for one hour.
• After that, it goes into maintenance mode. If, when in the maintenance mode, voltage drops below 12V, the entire program is started again. Otherwise a current pulse (80A/100µs) is sourced every 30s. Here the voltage can again be under par.
• After one hour voltage goes back to 13,8V for another hour, and so on... The last two steps cycle indefinitely. 

 

As you can imagine, what one measures on the battery depends very much where in the cycle one measures. 

[docc]

Indeed. I only have one charger that has any functional algorithm (The EnerSys OMAX 6). My old ones just settle into a constant voltage. I am able to use my 10amp and 6amp manual chargers only by physically monitoring voltage.  Observing batteries with a low SOC rise within a minute to the 15v limit is what got me discharging before charging.

 

Is your charger on the EnerSys list of "approved" chargers?

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEY_approved_12V_chargers.pdf

[Guzzi2Go]

Defo not. It is an el cheapo from our local motorcycle gear outlet in Germany, Louis.de - 39€ on discount. The brand is Saito, the model ProCharger (phased out by Louis, but still available on eBay).

 

Regarding your old chargers, to what current/voltage are they rated?

 

The reason that I ask is that my battery went south over the winter. Tried to charge it, but it would stay @75% for days, even weeks, voltage never exceeded 12.6V. Guess it could be shocked back to life (Dr. House stuff - "CLEAR!!!"), but the charger is to weak for this.

 

The reason why you say that your chargers settle for constant voltage may simply be that the battery needs a shock, but the charger cannot provide it (rated current too low). The voltage will settle for what the charger can provide and the battery will be unwilling to take more charge. This is probably one of the downsides of low power chargers.

 

Here the Guzzi's regulator may come to aid, but it looks it went south too...

 

How much volts do you measure on your old chargers in "leerlauf" without a battery connected.?

[docc]

"leerlauf" . . . I never thought of measuring like that . . .

 

1.5 amp charger :  13.28v leerlauf

2.0 amp charger :  10.28v leerlauf  (!)

 

On the *test bed* PC545 (beginning at 12.68OCV):

 

1.5 amp charger : 14.30 ( 13.17v float rising to 13.25v over a few minutes.

2.0 amp charger : 14.44 -> 13.31v -> 13.15 and continuing to fall over a few minutes.

 

This is why I stopped using these chargers. The EnerSys OMAX floats the PC545 at 13.56v at ~70ºF/21ºC.

 

The primary observation I had used to determine effective charging (and the *health* of the battery) was how long it took to fall back to the 12.65v charging threshold. After using the recommended minimum charge current and correct trickle/float voltage, these PC545 have had much longer static discharge times (often weeks instead of days).

[docc]

Guzzi2Go,

  What is the voltage (SOC)  of your old battery? It may come back to life using the deep discharge methods Odyssey publishes. Using a series of discharge/ charge up to 15v with 6+ amps may do the trick!

 

If it is fully discharged (~10v), you can use the parallel battery method to get it up enough to use the hi-amp charger. As always, watch those temperatures!

[Guzzi2Go]

Surprised about leerlauf voltage. 

 

A voltage source without load should show nominal voltage. Under load, the voltage will sink, owing to source's low but finite internal resistance. 

 

It looks like there is some logic in them after all. They seem to be capable of recognizing that a battery is connected, driving it to 14,3V and as they detect full battery, they may just as well go into some test mode, like mine would. 

 

That might explain 13 and a few bobs...

 

My old battery is @12,4V after three days on the charger and two days in the basement. As far as I can tell, the charger never managed to get through the first phase (constant current) and was not smart enough to determine that something might be wrong- Probably thought it is a large battery.

 

In the absence of high-amp charger, another battery may actually do the trick. Why didn't I think of that? 

 

It could rush in some serious current and help with recovery. But now I already have a new battery...

 

Still, now I am curious. Off to the garage to see what goes ablaze...

[docc]

12,4v should be recoverable. It is one of the Odyssey's best traits.

 

You will absolutely need 6 amps minimum for the charging. Also, try the discharge method and expect to perform the discharge/cycle several times.

 

Let us know how you make out!

[Chuck]

 

 

If these Odyssey batteries are so fussy why use them?

They're not fussy at all, really. This is just another case of picking the fly shit out of the pepper.     

I have several that have never *seen* a charger, and some have sat for months at a time. I replaced a couple of them that were still starting bikes, but were 10 and 12 years old.

The one in the AeroLario is the only one I've ever charged, and it's fine after blasting it with a 10 amp charger for an hour or so..

[docc]

"leerlauf" . . . I never thought of measuring like that . . .

 

1.5 amp charger :  13.28v leerlauf

2.0 amp charger :  10.28v leerlauf  (!)

 

On the *test bed* PC545 (beginning at 12.68OCV):

 

1.5 amp charger : 14.30 ( 13.17v float rising to 13.25v over a few minutes.

2.0 amp charger : 14.44 -> 13.31v -> 13.15 and continuing to fall over a few minutes.

 

This is why I stopped using these chargers. The EnerSys OMAX floats the PC545 at 13.56v at ~70ºF/21ºC.

 

The primary observation I had used to determine effective charging (and the *health* of the battery) was how long it took to fall back to the 12.65v charging threshold. After using the recommended minimum charge current and correct trickle/float voltage, these PC545 have had much longer static discharge times (often weeks instead of days).

I found it remarkable that the *test bed* PC545 fell below the ~85% (12.65v) charging threshold within 24 hours of testing the two improper chargers on it.

(Apparently, it did not *like* that.)

 

The biggest battery/charging issues are still the two simplest things that Kiwi_Roy has told us all along: 1) *regularly* clean, tighten, and seal with Vaseline® your battery terminals; and 2) see to your main ground, and ground the regulator case.

[Guzzi2Go]

Just to add something...

 

Connecting a deeply discharged and then incompletely charged battery back to the bike is not a good idea. For example, if a battery cannot exceed 75% charge (in my case - 12,6V) on the charger, then it is apparently damaged (a cell shorted?). This seems to put quite some stress on the charger and may cause it to break down.

 

On my Le Mans the charger is placed behind the oil cooler and between cylinder heads, so it is kept cozy and warm regardless of whether current is passing through it or not. Guess that does not help the case either.

 

So as a precaution, I'd say to charge the battery and check the resulting voltage if it has been sitting for long.

 

And then some data on what my new battery can take (Fullriver HC14B, was cheaper than Odyssey), just to get a feel what these things can take:

• Cold start current - 185A@-18°C (that's Siberia, for Fahrenheit people)
• Warm start current - 300A@27°C (that's German summer, warm, not hot, rainy and grey)
• Peak current - 545A@27°C for 5 seconds !!! 

So quite robust in terms of what one can push through them...

[moto fugazzi]

Thanks for all of the info here! 

 

My Odyssey isn't holding a charge well, and I never properly conditioned it before or during use. It's about 3 years old now, and instead of getting a new battery, I decided to get the Battery Minder 1128 CEC1 and give it a go. So far, it's spent a whole day in desulfate mode, and the indicator on the Battery Minder says that the battery is weak. I'll let the desulfate mode complete and see if that changes anything. I'll report back when it's finished. 

Ken