How to improve turn in?

[LowRyter]

GM, when I say 85+, of course I mean 95-100 mph on the speedo.  The bags make a big difference.  I can sometimes get some weave without the bags, on occasions accompanied by wind or semi.

 

What bags does your wife have on her bike?  I've got the largest HB.   BTW- my EV will give a little shake when it's loaded up with bags and camping gear on the luggage rack.

[JRD]

I don't think that just saddle bags could carry enough weight to have an adverse effect on the over all handling, mainly due to the fact that they keep the overall center of gravity of the bike low.  Its when the weight is "stacked up" either on the back side of a sissy bar or back past the passenger seat that definitely raises and moves the center of gravity.  At the same time the weight transfer up and back  is unloading the weight off of the front wheel which causes the wobbles on the straights and make the bike feel like it is "falling" into the turns.  The only adverse effect I have felt when using saddle bags was the increased windage which is usually minimal even at higher speeds.

[GuzziMoto]

The bags we use (we both use the same type of bags) are soft bags from Ortlieb. They are fairly large, but I do not know the rating. We load them up pretty full and pretty heavy when we take a week long trip like to Indy for the races. My wife also uses a tank bag, but I don't think that has much influence.

I have heard stories about Tonti frame handling issues (the EV), but I don't know how much of that is bike specific problems and how much of that is design.

Part of the issue that could cause handling issues is certainly weight distribution, Guzzis carry more weight on the rear than many others, and there is likely also some aero component to the issue. I suspect weight distribution is the main factor. And to deal with that you need to set your sag right. If you can't get the right sag numbers with your current spring you need a different spring. Too light a rear spring, or even not enough preload on it, could easily cause handling issues. So can any other suspension mis-adjustments, but that is often one of the worst offenders.

Again, if your bike has a weave, wobble, or wallow, check out the various parts of the equation. Something is wrong. It could be anything from a dead rear shock to worn steering head bearings. The steering damper may be causing the issue as easily as it might be helping with the issue. Whatever it is, it is something.

 

FYI, when traveling I use a GPS for speed. We usually don't run the interstates much, but have been known to make time on them for various reasons. When we are on them we are usually making time. As long as I don't get a ticket it is all good.

[Baldini]

Presuming suspension is set up right, bearings etc all good - Tyres - dunno what you're on, but a pointy sports profile makes for much easier turn in than more rounded. Going to 170 rear from 180 (or 160 from 170 on smaller rim) helps turn in too - but a 180 triangular profile can turn as quick as a 170 w a more rounded profile. 

But V11 is a heavy bike with a lot of that weight out back (& if you're loaded up you're adding to that) - harsh throttle inputs & last minute, hard braking can unsettle it. Works better ridden smoother - fast locomotive rather than a go-kart. Getting your weight as far up over the front is essential if you 're pushing on. Raising forks in triple clamps helps it feel more planted in turns.

I think mine is set up OK & smooth roads/track & ridden smooth it's fine, but can get tangled up if pushed hard enough especially over uneven surfaces, dips & bumps. IME it settles down OK, if you relax & leave it too it for a moment & on decent tyres. But anything will get out of shape if you try hard enough.

Maybe you just need to recalibrate your riding style? What did you come off to the Guzzi?

 

But what do I know - mine lives in the shed.

 

KB

[JBBenson]

Presuming suspension is set up right, bearings etc all good - Tyres - dunno what you're on, but a pointy sports profile makes for much easier turn in than more rounded. Going to 170 rear from 180 (or 160 from 170 on smaller rim) helps turn in too - but a 180 triangular profile can turn as quick as a 170 w a more rounded profile. 

 

This^

 

I thought mine was "set up" until I had the forks resprung/revalved and installed a new rear shock. All of the handling problems I had been trying to "tune out" disappeared.

 

The stock suspension is pretty bad, especially the forks. Do the front and back suspension first before doing anything else.

[LowRyter]

GM/JRD-

 

I am running the big HB hard bags.  Certainly the weight isn't equal to a passenger but quite a bit of aero drag.  They do sit behind the rear axle (see photo).   I get it bad in the wake of a semi.  Of course I am talking interstate speeds at an indicated 95-100.  Yeah, it weaves, not quite a shake.  Much more stable w/o the bags.

 

The red frames have a reputation to weave / shake.  They handle quickly, have aggressive geometry, and probably give up some stability.  

 

I am all ears to hear if there is a fix other than taking off those big fat 40L HBs.  But I suppose I am the only one here that runs those bags on a red frame?

[GuzziMoto]

GM/JRD-

 

I am running the big HB hard bags.  Certainly the weight isn't equal to a passenger but quite a bit of aero drag.  They do sit behind the rear axle (see photo).   I get it bad in the wake of a semi.  Of course I am talking interstate speeds at an indicated 95-100.  Yeah, it weaves, not quite a shake.  Much more stable w/o the bags.

 

The red frames have a reputation to weave / shake.  They handle quickly, have aggressive geometry, and probably give up some stability.  

 

I am all ears to hear if there is a fix other than taking off those big fat 40L HBs.  But I suppose I am the only one here that runs those bags on a red frame?

I think the term you meant to use is "have more aggressive geometry", not "have aggressive geometry".

There is nothing aggressive about the geometry of a red frame V11 accept when compared to other Guzzi's. 

And again, my wife has an early red frame V11 that does not weave, wobble, or wallow. And it does not even have a steering damper.

There have been more than a few people to say their red frame V11 did something bad, that it was not stable. But, my point is, that tells me there was either something wrong with their bike or they did not properly set sag. And you may find, when you set sag, that the numbers tell you your spring is too soft. And no amount of preload can fix a spring that is too soft. You can only fix that with a new spring. First set your sag and see where you are with your spring rates (front and rear). If you need stiffer springs get them. You may want to have a pro set up your suspension. Then, if it still has issues, find what is broken, worn, or mal-adjusted and fix it. Because it should not do that and if it does something is wrong.

[LowRyter]

My bike mostly weaves when loaded with the big HB bags and I am approaching 100mph or encounter the wake of semi.  Apparently, I am the only one here with big touring bags on a red frame but I am all ear if anyone has some relevant experience to improve this.  

 

I believe my sag is set close.  In fact, I just doubled checked it yesterday with my mechanic when I ordered stock-sized tries.  The mechanic is an Ohlins trained guy.  It was certainly was cursory, I sat in the bike and he eyeballed.  The red frames have a reputation to weave / shake.  They handle quickly, have aggressive geometry, and probably give up some stability.  On the other hand, it's best handing motorcycle I've owned and is great in the twisties.  

[JRD]

LowRyter- Having owned both a 2000 V-11 Sport and now the 2002 Le Mans, I was amazed how much more stabile the Le Mans felt on the interstate.  Maybe it was due to a brand new set of Michelin tires on the Le Mans while the Sport had older Dunlope D616's.  The Sport just felt "nervous" or twitchy? It was definitely a much more responsive/sensitive handling machine.

As far as those big bags, just look at the profile of your bike from the front or rear.  They probably double the width of the profile of the bike, which increase the surface area the bike has to overcome to maintain a certain level of speed. I like to refer to it as pushing the barn door down the road.  That "blast of air" you feel when you overtake the semi tractor trailers is the same theory on a much larger scale.  Used /worn tires that are under or over inflated, or overloaded as well as suspension set up and load placement are all details affect the handling of your bike.  Im in total agreement with GuzziMoto as far as having someone more knowledgeable help set up the suspension.  Im certain that I can do it on my own bike, but it would be a trial and error situation.  You might be better off bitting the bullet and taking the bike to a shop that routinely deals with suspension set ups.  Especially shops involved in racing, they are more inclined to have the necessary experience as they routinely make suspension changes for the various tracks.  Good luck.       

[LowRyter]

JRD- it appears that you agree that the red frame has more aggressive geometry and that the bags contribute to an aero issue as well as the semi trucks.  Since I am the only one here with a red frame and huge bags, I suppose I am alone with this issue.

 

When I get new tries tomorrow, I'll ask the Ohlins' trained mechanic to give it a "once over"- he's already checked the sag.    

 

What I have read, the most likely detectable defects for weave are swingarm and steering head bearings.  I've suspected the steering head for some time but at last service my previous mechanic didn't notice any movement.  Probably a good thing to check again.

 

Regardless, there's no one here running fill size bags on a red frame, it could be aero and location (behind the rear axle).

[JRD]

Is the problem on all roads, down here in Florida some of the concrete road surfaces have the rain grooves and that even makes my Aprilia "wander"

[GuzziMoto]

As mentioned, my wife runs saddlebags on her red frame with no ill effects. Maybe they aren't quite as large as yours, but they can't be that far from it. They are standard full sized bags. Add to that the crap she straps down to the top, it can't be that far from what you are doing. Once she had those bags plus an oversize sleeping bag strapped on top.

As to the geometry, the early models had 25 degrees of rake and somewhere around 4" of trail (I am not sure what the exact trail numbers are). Those aren't extreme numbers and there are many motorcycles out there with similar numbers.

 

I hope you find out what is wrong. They don't all do that.

[LowRyter]

I am not sure there is anything wrong.  It's just might be the way it is.  Since no one here runs the big bags on a red frame at speed we just don't have a point of comparison.  

 

Docc and I played with dampener.  I might just tighten it up next time I am tempted to run a 100 with the bags on.

[docc]

Hmmmm, RedFrame?

 

What is the part number cast into the underside of the lower triple tree?

[PDoz]

 

When I get new tries tomorrow, I'll ask the Ohlins' trained mechanic to give it a "once over"- he's already checked the sag.    

 

What I have read, the most likely detectable defects for weave are swingarm and steering head bearings.  I've suspected the steering head for some time but at last service my previous mechanic didn't notice any movement.  Probably a good thing to check again.

 

Regardless, there's no one here running fill size bags on a red frame, it could be aero and location (behind the rear axle).

Can you post a picture from behind? I know on my perfectly set up ktm640 adv I get a weave around 160 k with panniers, but that's because the panniers are asymetrically mounted and that's the speed at which the buffetting sets up an evil dynamic. Most noticeable on dirt, because the sway is coming from the back - the rear tyre actually starts sliding!!!

 

 

Other things contributing to asymetry will also contribute to weaving - your mechanic will be unlikely to be familiar with the swingarm bolt adjustments, so do the stringlining yourself. The pipes aren't symetrical , so you may be getting turbulence between them and the panniers? It may even be you ( I'm a bit twisted so need to set up my bikes carefully to avoid high speed wallow....I'm often amazed at how simple things can trigger the wallows but my twisted spine makes them show up for me whilst other people might not notice them - I slide left on greasy clay)