That pesky ignition switch

[audiomick]

50 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

But the 'park' is below the 'lock' position, available only after the fork lock is activated. So, stuck in place.

Yes, but....

Look at component #39 here

https://guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/V11Sport_NonCatal_2004.pdf

That is the ignition switch, i.e. the switch that the key operates.

+12 V arrives from the battery (via fuses) in the first and third "column".

The "on" position connects the first column with the second, and the third with the fourth. First to second is ECU, Injectors, all the things that allow the bike to run, and the headlight. Third to fourth is power to the blinkers, the instrument lighting, and the park light, tail light and number plate light.

The "park" position connects the first column with the fourth, i.e. power only to the blinkers, the instrument lighting, and the park light, tail light and number plate light.

 

So I reckon docc is right: if the lighting relay dies on the way to wherever you want to get to, the tail light and park light and blinkers should still work, and be enough for other Verkehrsteilnehmer (traffic participants. There is a word for everything in German...) to see you and be able to avoid running you over (if they want to).

 

[Pressureangle]

10 minutes ago, audiomick said:

Yes, but....

Look at component #39 here

https://guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/V11Sport_NonCatal_2004.pdf

That is the ignition switch, i.e. the switch that the key operates.

+12 V arrives from the battery (via fuses) in the first and third "column".

The "on" position connects the first column with the second, and the third with the fourth. First to second is ECU, Injectors, all the things that allow the bike to run, and the headlight. Third to fourth is power to the blinkers, the instrument lighting, and the park light, tail light and number plate light.

The "park" position connects the first column with the fourth, i.e. power only to the blinkers, the instrument lighting, and the park light, tail light and number plate light.

 

So I reckon docc is right: if the lighting relay dies on the way to wherever you want to get to, the tail light and park light and blinkers should still work, and be enough for other Verkehrsteilnehmer (traffic participants. There is a word for everything in German...) to see you and be able to avoid running you over (if they want to).

 

Yes. I misunderstood what he was saying. Of course, the switch activates that circuit separately from the ignition and headlamp, whether in 'run' or 'park'.

[audiomick]

So, I said I'd take some photos. Here they are.

Some of them are a bit dodgy, but most will know how that is. Greasy hands taking photos with a telephone in the garage...

 

I mentioned further up that I got a replacement housing as part of a complete ignition switch from an Aprilia scooter. I think the model was S50.

Here is a picture of the switch plate from the contact side. On the left the plate from the V11, on the right from the scooter. It is the same bit of plastic, but the V11 has a couple of contacts more than the scooter.

This is the bit that makes the contacts from the contact side

 

here, that bit is sitting on the contact plate, and one can see the ball bearings that provide the detente for the switch position. The following picture shows the inside of the casing with the indents for the detente visible.

 

 

 

This picture and the next one show the order in which the bits go back together

 

I wrote further up that one must work on the "visually obvious" retainer to get the switch plate out of the housing. This is the visually obvious hole for the relevant retainer. The other two retainers are in plain square holes.

 

Here are a few pictures of the key lock from the V11 and from the scooter. The park lock is clearly visible on both; on the V11 lock the bolt is retracted but it is clear where it comes out, on the scooter lock the bolt doesn't retract any further than it is in the photo. The lock from the V11 is the one on the left, and the scooter the one on the right.,

 

And finally a picture of the housing that I broke whilst disassembling it. I suspect that the break is typical. To avoid breaking the housing, take your time, think about what you're doing (twice) be patient, and don't try to release all of the retainers. Get the obvious one free, and then rotate the switch plate out of the housing.

 

 

The replacement I got was from an Aprilia scooter. The model was, as mentioned, I believe S50. That is not critical, though. I have been reliably informed that Piaggio / Aprilia / Guzzi used the same type of locks for pretty much everything they built in that period. My Breva 750, for instance, also has the same thing in it.

As far as I can tell, the same housing was used pretty much everywhere, and that is what is likely to break when dismantling the switch to clean it up.

The scooter switch I got only had two positions: on or off. Without knowing for sure, I rather suspect that there was only one version with "park, lock, off, on" as in the V11. The trick is finding out what else had that in it. If it wasn't a Guzzi, the part would probably be cheaper...

[docc]

This image makes me revisit the idea that @Pressureangle's issue could be "mechanical." (If the switch cleaning/service is not entirely effective).

Just thinking that, if these "detents" wear, the indexing on the switch could become compromised and allow the "park" lights to activate as a fault . . .

[audiomick]

17 minutes ago, docc said:

 if these "detents" wear, the indexing on the switch could become compromised and allow the "park" lights to activate as a fault . . .

There's a thought.

On the "against" side, that sort of wear would presumably only turn up when the "park" lights had been used very frequently, such that the step from "lock" to "park" has seen a lot of use.

I almost never turn on the park lights, but maybe other people do.

 

Edit: or maybe the switch is just generally worn out, and the detents are not that precise anymore. :scratching_his_head_and_thinking_emoji_that_we_desperately_need_here.

[Pressureangle]

2 hours ago, docc said:

This image makes me revisit the idea that @Pressureangle's issue could be "mechanical." (If the switch cleaning/service is not entirely effective).

Just thinking that, if these "detents" wear, the indexing on the switch could become compromised and allow the "park" lights to activate as a fault . . .

Nope. 
A physical fault would not explain the time factor, that without being touched the lights eventually come on, and every time. The capacitor effect explains. And, so far they're still off after cleaning. 
Interesting to note, my switch has 3 contact plates; nor are the 6 small contacts connected to anything. 

[audiomick]

6 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

 nor are the 6 small contacts connected to anything. 

No, they aren't. Neither on my V11 switch nor on the scooter switch.

I did take a photo of the wiring side of the switch plate, but seem to have lost it.

 

Edit: wait, here is one I already had in the gallery

[Pressureangle]

Hopefully to put a nail in this thread, it's 10 days since the last time I turned the key to 'off'. I had the cover up so I could see the taillight and looked every evening; it was never lit. Today, put the key in it, battery said 12.5v, started immediately and significantly, went straight to 14.0 volts in only a couple minutes; at the Spine Raid, the day we left it took nearly an hour to recover the battery to a steady 14.0, so I know that despite the easy start the battery was significantly discharged. 
Strange Magic.

[docc]

So, some very notable electrical improvements from cleaning/servicing the ignition switch?

[Pressureangle]

On 9/27/2023 at 11:40 PM, docc said:

So, some very notable electrical improvements from cleaning/servicing the ignition switch?

Yes, not only has the discharge disappeared, but the charging system seems to work better as well. 

[Tomchri]

And help the soldering points in the switch by making a little loop on the cable and secure it to the switch, easy strap or tape.  Every time you turn the handle bars is stress on the wires/ soldering.

Cheers Tom.