Clutchless changes

[kenr]

Now my geabox is fixed I thought I would see if I can destroy it again practising clutchless changes based on the discussion in the previous thread from Tim and Janusz .......

 

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QUOTE(rktman1 @ Nov 19 2004, 03:49 AM)

This is how he told me to shift:

 

1) Pull in the clutch

2) Lift up on the shift lever

3) Let out the clutch

4) Release the shift lever

 

You'll notice steps 3) and 4) are reversed. I've ignored the throttle manipulation here.

 

Tim in Tucson

 

 

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If you eliminate from your procedure points 1) and 3) and time your 2) and 4) with throttle snap then, and only then you will be able to achieve the real upshifting nirvana.

 

I guarantee you will never go back to unnecessary clutch manipulations.

 

Janusz

 

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I got a few in this afternoon but there is obvioulsy a lot to the technique - interested if anyone has further advice on getting this right every time ??

 

Ken

[Motomonster]

This is how I do it:

 

Quickly decrease the throttle to take the load off the gears, when the weight has shifted forward a bit, click into the next gear and re-accelerate.

 

I don't do this much, as my 5-speed Stone box has a wider gear range than the V11 Sport and this makes it difficult to have smooth transitions. But I do like to practice incase my clutch cable ever snaps.

[kenr]

Thanks Motomonster.

 

A got a few good changes in and can see the benefit. It wasnt a very long run and nothing scientific but I was trying to see if I could figure out what I was doing wrong when it wouldn't change - obvioulsy the gearbox is still loaded, but I am wondering what I am doing wrong when it won't shift so I can try to concentrate on what I need to fix. I am pretty sure I backed off the revs all the way and would try holding the gearchange up but on a coujple of occasions had to give up and use the clutch (of course it all gets a bit hectic when its really not going to work out).

 

Any more guidance appreciated.

 

Ken

[Janusz]

kenr;

You have to first visualize inside your head what is really happening when you upshift.

 

Do not, I repeat, do not "back off the revs all the way" as you say because you will not be able to shift; your engine will be now decelerating your bike and torque will be applied through your transmission exactly like when accelerating but in an opposite way.

 

The whole trick is to take all the load off your transmission and then and only then, when it is in a sense kind of coasting, you will shift easy like hot knife throught the butter. Your clutch and your transmission will thank you for it and last much longer then otherwise.

 

This is how I do it: I chop the throttle for a split second only a tiny bit just to cause an engine to stop pulling. At the same time I hit the gearchange up and the throttle is on again. The whole thing takes probably less then 1/5 of a second and there is no stages in a throttle movement; down and up again in one quick minute jerk. It is also well synchronized since I've done it many thousand times over the years and now it comes subconsiously but believe me, after some practice you will do it as well as anybody or better.

 

After you are comfortable upshifting you can practice clutchless downshifts. The idea is the same but more precision needed during practice.

 

DO NOT PRELOAD YOUR GEARBOX PEDAL.

 

The higher gears and faster speeds are easier and better to practice first.

The heavier, less performance and older the bike is, especially without close ratio gearbox, the less beneficial clutchless shifting is.

Riding cruisers, any cruisers, I use the clutch.

Bikes like our beloved Guzzi V11S - upshifts always (almost) no clutch, downshifts only when aggresive (90% of the time).

Real sportsbikes (including SV650S for instance) - always no clutch. Same in dirt.

 

Remember: m/cycle gearbox is nothing like car gearbox. All the gears are meshed permanently all the time. You just lock and unlock them on the shafts.

[Janusz]

This prolonged holding gearchange pedal "in" when shifting, like Tim in Tucson mentions, is a bad idea IMO.

 

If your forks and dogs are already damaged maybe you would prevent jumping out of gear doing that. But on a good bike this is the best way to damage shift selector mechanism and wear down shift forks.

 

Some "old school" riders or others babying their machines use them up much faster then necessary.

[kenr]

Hi Janusz,

 

This sounds like great advice - thanks, makes it clearer were I am going wrong. I'll continue to practice.

 

Rgds,

 

Ken

[Steve G.]

I've got some good advice as well. Use the clutch. It's amazing how well it shifts when this devise is used! A very interesting thread though.

I don't know guys, I guess I just have more mechanical sympathy and respect for my machines. Sure, after practice, clutchless upshifts and downshifts can be mastered, but think about what you are doing to the entire drivetrain until you've got it mastered.

I'm glad most of my bikes were purchased new!

Ciao, Steve G.

[Admin Jaap]

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

I guess I just have more mechanical sympathy and respect for my machines

This may sound unusual coming from someone who loves wheelies and burnouts but I don't see any need for clutchless shifts. I know that done properly there is little or no chance of hurting the transmission but I do not see any benefit from the technique (as opposed to the vast and immense benefits of wheelies and burnouts!). Perhaps in circumstances of competition where tenths of a second matter I could see the need but not for everyday riding. If you wish to utilize this technique for your own pleasure then good on ya, mate!

[Guest Jeff Kelland]

I agree with Jim, no real reason for not using the clutch. If you get it right, the transmission is not damaged, get it wrong and.........the shock loads are hard on the whole driveline. I almost always use the clutch, but I don't pull it all the way to the bar. I just pull it in enough to let the clutch slip a little. When I went from the Ducati (that liked clutchless shifting up and down!) to the Guzzi, it took a while for me to learn how to shift it smoothly. Much heavier flywheel which amplifies any mistakes. If I was in a hurry, I would preload the shifter and slip the clutch, it worked pretty well. When I got the BMW, I thought it would be like the Guzzi, wrong! It's flywheel is even heavier, It took just as long to learn how to shift as did the Guzzi. I learned though. I think when I get a new Guzzi I will feel it shifts wonderfully compared to the BMW!

[BrianG]

This may sound unusual coming from someone who loves wheelies and burnouts but I don't see any need for clutchless shifts. I know that done properly there is little or no chance of hurting the transmission but I do not see any benefit from the technique (as opposed to the vast and immense benefits of wheelies and burnouts!). Perhaps in circumstances of competition where tenths of a second matter I could see the need but not for everyday riding. If you wish to utilize this technique for your own pleasure then good on ya, mate!

38782[/snapback]

 

 

I have a myriad of ways to use and abuse my bike, but clutchless shifts seem like purposeful abuse without benefit. That is, unless it's a race...

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

That is, unless it's a race...

Is that a challenge?

[Janusz]

I am really surprised that so many long time and experienced, supposedly enthusiast motorcyclists remain firmly planted in the dark ages.

 

What damage, hurt(sic!) and abuse to the transmission can happen when you upshift it without the clutch? Could any of you explain please?

 

Of course we are talking about a modern constant mesh motorcycle transmission which has NOTHING in common with car transmission except the name and function.

 

No, the truth is that clutchless upshifts on new, modern bike are wearing your driveline LESS not more. This is benefit number one.

 

It is faster, way faster. Even if you are not in a hurry it is still a benefit and not impediment. That's two.

 

It is much more elegant, satisfying and smooth then using clutch. Benefit #3.

 

For everybody for whom these three simple statements are not convincing here is the advice: please study how a m/c transmission works, think about it for a while and please agree that not always the old traditional ways of doing things are the proper, the best ones.

 

Clutchless shifting by itself will never damage your bike. Shifting poorly, with or without the clutch, will damage the parts. And this is the essence of the whole discussion IMO.

[Cliff]

No, the truth is that clutchless upshifts on new, modern bike are wearing your driveline LESS not more. This is benefit number one.

 

So which Guzzis fall into that category? My 97 Sport Corsa?

[pete roper]

This is a real can of worms. As Januz says constant mesh gearboxes, (Mind you most cars now use CM boxes too. I only found that out recently as the last car box I had apart was some horrible Leyland thing fron the '50's and that was about 1980, I don't like cars ) are very different from car boxes as the selection mechanisms are quite different.

 

The main thing is that the wider the *gap* between each gear the more parts have to accelerate and decellerate between changes of gear to allowfor the smooth engagement of the dogs to enable the clean engagement of the next gear.

 

With the old five speeder the lower gears have a very wide *gap* between them and consequently clutchless changes almost always result in horrible noises and a lunge for the lever if you try it between 1'st and 2nd and to a lesser degree between 2nd and 3rd. the heavier the flywheel the greater the chance of you f#cking it up . 3rd-4th and 4th-5th are pretty much a case of preloading the lever and giving the throttle a twitch, even if, like me, you have a HUGE flywheel off an Eldo in your bike . That's up changing. Downchanges on the 5 speeder are a different matter. No, it's not impossible but it is bloody hard to get it right all the time.

 

To be honest, I find no real advantage in not using the clutch, even on the hot-rod which has a CR box, no flywheel to speak of an is always operated at high revs. Even if I'm playing 'Mr boy-racer-tryhard-wanker' I find that because I'm concentrating on changing gear so hard I tend to muff up other things but as I've often stated I ride like Gumby! I know that Rob doesn't use the clutch much on upchanges on the racer but I think he uses it for downchanges because when he's on the picks for turn 2 at Eastern Creek, (He can now take turn one flat out which to me indicates he's off his crumpet, thats about 220KPH, the Tonti steering stability and skinny tyres help a lot here! ) he'll be going down more than one gear and trying with all his might not to loose the front end and have one of those bloody Honda's run over his head, (again!!).

 

The various ratios in the V11 six speeder are a lot closer together, the flywheel weight is a lot less allowing the crank to accelerate and decellerate quicker and the change is a lot more rapid and precise so clutchless changing will be a lot easier. I haven't had enough experience of the V11's to know which gears you can *safely* start clutchless changing from so I'm not going to offer any real advice. Januz is right though, if done properly clutchless changing will do no harm. Muffing it up though gets expensive fairly quickly.

 

Of course if you're sensible and civilized you ride a Convert like me and all of this silly gear changing nonsense becomes immaterial

 

Pete