ECU

[RacerX]

I said no such thing... And at your suggestion, I re-read this whole post and amazed myself that I don't think I missed a thang.

 

Ahhh... David, I beg to differ.

 

No, I think it does help the operator. He can sell an ECU tuning for $150 plus dyno time. With the PCIII you are looking at $300+ plus dyno time.

 

You claimed above, "sell ECU tuning for $150 plus dyno time". I was refering to the fact that a TL operator wouldn't make anything on the "key" at $150 (which I thought was the price). You were simply looking at it from a consumer/out-of-pocket pricing/expense... that is until he told everyone here that he'd sell it to TL operators for $100.

 

Since I re-read everything, want me to re-hash it for you? Tuning Boy seems to do everything the PCIII currently does, and more, for less.

 

OK, so I think you should buy it, and prove it to us. I'm talking about building the ultimate map using TL with it... as I was refering to some of the pricing that was being charged to do it... not implying EVERYONE charges this. David, if you read the links to the Aprilia board, there is a guy in San D that refuses to use it, and he's a TL Dyno Center.

 

So Todd, you better message this guy offboard and cut a deal.  I am suprised that you guys are conflicting.

 

Already tried several times... no response. Direct or via this board's PM.

Conflicting... I'm only posting the highlights of the debate the happened over on the Aprilia board. David, did you really read those posts over there?

 

Will PowerCommander lock down the TuningLink so that only PCIIIs can benefit?

 

I'd bet anything on that one.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

[dlaing]

I read some of the links on the Aprillia board, and found even better stuff on a Triumph board, let me find the link...

edit

Here it is http://www.t595.net/messageboard/forum.asp?forum=15

It shows some of the real world problems that one might experience.

I am not sure if the trouble factor is higher or lower than a PCIII.

The PCIII is pretty simple to use for me, but as you know Todd, I have sent you questions that you have promptly and accurately answered.

As for the tuning boy, I noted some problems:

1 keys...fixed easily

2 which serial port to select...fixed, apparently easily

3 Timeouts when loadin map....it seems like there are different solutions to this...everybody was happy, except maybe number 5.

4 Somebody wrote about a clunk...no aswer yet, but I am pretty sure it is the noise of the fuel pump, as described in the tuneboy faq.

5 Mark Green posted in September, and gave no indication that he got it working...he only posted once...

6 many of the posts praised the product.

7 tuneboy helped someone go closed loop

8 tuneboy helped some discover their ecu was bad.

9 compatibility mode needed to be set

10 tuneboy vs PCIII thread opinion is in favor of tuneboy

11 some of the tunes were somehow out of the range of the editor....Wayne had a workaround

I could go on.

It does appear to be more complex than the PCIII, but granted as it has more features.

The Aprillia site seemed to have a less constructive, more opinionated tone in the links that were posted earlier here.

I used the Aprillia site's search engine and found feedback and question more in line with the Triumph's site.

So are the first Guzzi customers going to be guinea pigs? I don't think it will be too bad.

The forums on tuneboys and PCIIIs are nothing like the forums on most software applications.

It sounds like Wayne does excellent work.

If I did not have a PCIII, I would consider one.

[BrianG]

So, Todd, does this mean that I can buy a PCIII from you with the appropriate map for the modifications, and then use my multi-sensor LM-1 system to mess with specific parts of the A/F map? Can I then restore the map to the original through some default process, after I'v screwed things up so badly that it won't run anymore?

[Guest wmcdonal]

To summarise My15M benefits over WM15 + Tuneboy.

 

- Throttle pump emulation

- Optional closed loop implemention that does not have any problems that I know of.

- On road adjustability/diagnosis ( unless you ride with you laptop )

- Automatic map improvement ( currently with optional Optimiser only )

- On going development

 

To summarise PC benefits over WM15 + Tuneboy.

Throttle pump

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The map in the WM15 has an accelleration enrichment map, this is the same as a throttle pump.

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

The one MAJOR difference here in everybodies comparisons to this and that and everything else is, that Triumphs have 02 senors, and I believe the Aprilias do too and NEITHER use a marelli 1.5M computer. Now consider the floowing as is applies to GUZZI'S WITH 1.5M COMPUTERS

 

More observations:

 

-the 1.5M Marelli is known to work flawlessly as deliverded from the factory on a new GUZZI. The new ones start running bad when people let valves get out of adjustemnt, throttle bodies fall out of sync, etc. I have seen NO complaints on the internet on the running of a 1.5M ECU on stock GUZZIS. Many magazines compliment stock Guzzi's for their fine fuel delivery as delivered from the factory. Many magazines rip on Triumph because of their crap fuel delivery from the factory. It is also known that Aprilias run restricted fuel maps as delivered from the factory. The 15M is open loop only which is adequate for motorcycles. It is known to be worlds ahead of the P7,P8, and 1.6M. It's plain, it's simple, it works very well on Guzzis.

 

-The PCIII has proven to be much much much more that adequate in providing for fueling adjustment when Guzzi owners make the common mods of airbox, crossover, mufflers. The small percentage that go beyond this with headwork and cams have also reported NO problems with the PCIII. The PCIII USB can be had at parts411.com for $257. expect to pay a tuning link center about $200 to custom map it (typically a flat fee for tuning link service, not an hourly charge, I've seen as low as $150, as high as $250). There are tuning link sites EVERYWHERE in the US now. Tuning link is pretty much automated and is known to be a very quick process. My bike took 1/2 day work at the shop all total. Was done by lunch time. You can make adjustments yourself at home too!! Great option at a small investment gets you a PROVEN simple to use product. Unless you think by adding another box to your bike will cause it to explode. get a grip. Figure less than $500 all total.

 

-Cliffs My15M is his version of a Marelli unit that basically just blows open the code so you guys can access it. His unit will set you back about $290 US according to his latest info for a 'full kit' that you must be slapped into YOUR ECU. That means, unless you have a spare ECU ($100 on Ebay maybe??), then there is probably no going back after you gut yours. Also, he gives no price on his optimizer. How much for that?? Then you need to find a shop in your neck of the woods that wants to help you develop a base map if you don't like the one Cliff sends you. Bike shop rates usualyl run $50/hour. So what, 8 hours at least for somebody to figure it out? That's $400 minimum IF you can talk somebody into doing it. I have found that most shops in my neck of the woods with a dyno A) don't like working with something unfamiliar to them and don't want their customers in the dyno room with the operator while he is working C) won't allow anybody in the shop area because of insurance reasons anyway. So the investment here could be as little as $290 plus optimizer (???) plus your time on the road, or much much much more. Figure $290 for kit $100 for junk ECU, $400 if you can find somebody to build a base map on their dyno while you stand with them in their shop working with their dyno operator (that is a ling shot in this area!). That's $790+. You can make adjustments at home too! Actually for the guy that HAS to be able to f'k with everything and is doing crazy mods, and is super anal about fuel efficiency and want to convert to an O2 sensor (remember Guzzi's runnig 1.5M bikes are open loop!!), this does not appear to be a bad option assumming you have the time and the money and can find a willing dyno shop. A final total cost could be as low as $300 or $790+. Better runnig bike than with a PCIII? No data avaialable.

 

-The Vaunted FIM Ultimap software is only available to dealers. Even if you were a dealer, the cost exceeds like $1,500 or so last time I saw a price (they used to post it). For a custom map, your bike will be flogged mercilessly on the dyno for HOURS on end probably over the course of a few days. The Ulitmap software can change EVERYTHING in the ECU and you will have truly a custom map when you are done. As of last count there are 4, maybe 5 places inthe US that have this software. Prices for this mapping have been reported to exceed $1,000 to $1,500. THEN, everytime you want to change something, you have to go back to the FIM center. Can't return the bike to stock without their services either! For those with deep pockets that just don't care. Pricing is 'sky is the limit'. Better runnig bike than with a PCIII? No data available.

 

-The new Tuneboy. It will do percentage changes to the map like the PCIII and will also let the user modify the RAW data in the ECU just like the FIM softare (or so it appears). Also lets you run the factory diagnostics. Cost as advertised is $310 with ONE edit key that lets you do ONE bike. As this can be set up like a Power Commander, you should in THEORY be able to have a tuning link center set it up. In actuallity, you will proabably have to do some smoth talking to get a tuning link center to work with it (see my above discussion about bike shops really not wanting you hanging around and working with their people). So, assumming you can get a tuning link center to set it up, figure the same $200 as above. Thats $510, a tad more than a PCIIIUSB. Also considering in includes the diagnostic programming (factory software is $200 thru technoresearch). Not a bad deal actually. Also, it appears that you can edit the RAW data just like with the FIM software. To edit the raw data, you would go thru many many hours of changing values, loading map, doing a run, change values, load map, do run, etc. etc (as documneted on Aprilia site). Basically, your machine will be flogged mercilessly for hours and hours on the dyno just like with the FIM software. There are FEW places in the US advertised that set up tuneboys. The one place that advertises prices shows cost exceeding $1000 to tune all throttle positions. Plus the cost of the key. It has been reported that you can also make your ECU retarted if you screw up the software. Then you get to revive a dead ECU. Sounds like fun to me. Also, many users report needed a seperate laptop for it's use as they reformat their computer when loading new versions to ensure everything works correctly (accoriding to the Aprilia and Triumph sites). All in all, it does not appear to be a bad package, especially for the Triumphs becasue tehy run closed loop really funky ECU's. But for a 1.5M Guzzi that runs open loop (and runs it pretty damn well I might add), is it overkill. I don't know. One more thing to consider. If it does percentage adjustments like a PCIII, then wouldn't the whole altitude affects argument the tuneboy guy presented above also rear it's head with the tuneboy when using it in PCIII emulation mode? So, if you WANT to have the software and have it set up like a PCIII, you'd ahve around $500. If you Don;t want the software and want it set up, maybe $350 (dyno time plus key cost). But then, you can;t change it, so you might as well by the software. If you want the software and than want it set up my modding the raw values at a dyno shop, you'd probaly have EASILY $1,000 plus in it. Whichever option you choose, you STILL must find a shop with a dyno willing to work with you. Better running GUZZI than with a PCIII? NO data available. The triumph and aprilia crowds are split on which one is better for THEIR bikes.

 

 

 

 

All in all, remember this, none of these solutions actually MAKE horsepower. They help you tune YOUR bike for the mods you have made so that the fuel delivery is correct. The mods you made (exhaust, intake, etc) are actually the items that rasie power once the fueling is correct. If you bike is bone stock with a 1.5M, then don't worry about it anyway! keep the valves adjusted and the throttle body synched, and it will run superb.........

 

now, if you have a Triumph that is known to have crap fuel delivery form the factory (Benelli fuel delivery is said to be crap also) or an Aprilia with restricted fuel delivery, than well, everythings different for you. You might need one of these prodicts from the get go........

[RacerX]

So, Todd, does this mean that I can buy a PCIII from you with the appropriate map for the modifications, and then use my multi-sensor LM-1 system to mess with specific parts of the A/F map?  Can I then restore the map to the original through some default process, after I'v screwed things up so badly that it won't run anymore?

 

That is correct Brian.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

[guzzi323]

-the 1.5M Marelli is known to work flawlessly as deliverded from the factory on a new GUZZI.  The new ones start running bad when people let valves get out of adjustemnt, throttle bodies fall out of sync, etc.  I have seen NO complaints on the internet on the running of a 1.5M ECU on stock GUZZIS. 

 

40350[/snapback]

 

Now I don't want to start any trouble, but if you haven't seen any complaints about totally stock Guzzi's having running problems, you're just not paying attention. My (at the time totally stock) Scura has detonated horribly since it had a few thousand miles on it. Dealer servicing didn't do anything. The reason I put a Power Commander on it was to be able to richen the mixture up a bit to help.

 

I know either Cliff's ECU or a Tune boy will allow me to change the timing, but I'm not quite ready to go there yet. If I were to, I'd buy Cliff's ECU simply because it's a more open setup. I'm not going to pay $300 to tuneboy software that's locked to one ECU. I don't like software locked to hardware from Miscrosoft or anybody else.

 

My 2 cents (not that anybody asked..)

 

johnk

[Motomonster]

My PCIII works great and my custom map was $180.00.

 

I gather that some people have luck with the downloadable maps, but I didn't. My guess is that the Guzzi is simply not a hyper-precision machine that would allow for maps from one bike to work perfectly on another. But I suppose they can get you in the ballpark. No bigee.

 

I say go custom. It's worth it.

[RacerX]

The PCIII USB can be had at parts411.com for $257.

 

Just be sure to deal with these guys for all technical issues and maps.

That is *FAR* below my cost.

 

Just please remember, I/Guzzitech.com are responsible for most of the maps available, and the fact the a usbPCIII exists for Guzzis.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

[dlaing]

I'm not going to pay $300 to tuneboy software that's locked to one ECU. I don't like software locked to hardware from Miscrosoft or anybody else.

 

My 2 cents (not that anybody asked..)

 

johnk

40353[/snapback]

To split hairs, only about half of the $300 is locked to the ECU.

As Todd suggested, the 15Ms are very reliable.

I would be upset if my ECU died and I lost both the ECU and the key.

I wonder if the 15M will be more resilient to software than the Aprillia and Triumph ECUs

My PC is 99% spy and virus free, has built in serial, and is not running XP, so I am pretty confident that I won't 'retart' my ECU.

You can always tote your ECU to your next bike...although I suppose there are warranty issues and future compatibility issues.

But, I am sure it is easier to swap PCIIIs around as I have seen Todd do it in a parking lot in seconds.

And FWIW, my stock bike benefitted from the PCIII after a dealer service.

And benefitted even more, after I loosened the valves.

 

Concerning the PCIII vs. Tuneboy at altitude, I think the difference is that the PCIII changes the percentage after the algorithm or whatever is modified by the air pressure sensor, while the tune boy modifies it before the air pressure sensor makes the correction. I suppose Wayne would know for sure.

 

Despite my disagreements, Great Post Jeff in Ohio!

Ohio could use you to overhaul their voting machines, as you are obviously honest and logical.

I guess I should go back and find the Aprillia post about someone knocking out their ECU.

Could they restore it?

[TX REDNECK (R.I.P.)]

Just please remember, I/Guzzitech.com are responsible for most of the maps available, and the fact the a usbPCIII exists for Guzzis.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

40360[/snapback]

 

 

This is true, but now you have outlived your usefulness <_>

[dlaing]

This is true, but now you have outlived your usefulness  <_>

40363[/snapback]

Watch out Todd! Have you seen his gun collection?!?

[Guest Jeff in Ohio]

To split hairs, only about half of the $300 is locked to the ECU.

As Todd suggested, the 15Ms are very reliable.

I would be upset if my ECU died and I lost both the ECU and the key.

I wonder if the 15M will be more resilient to software than the Aprillia and Triumph ECUs

My PC is 99% spy and virus free, has built in serial, and is not running XP, so I am pretty confident that I won't 'retart' my ECU.

You can always tote your ECU to your next bike...although I suppose there are warranty issues and future compatibility issues.

But, I am sure it is easier to swap PCIIIs around as I have seen Todd do it in a parking lot in seconds.

And FWIW, my stock bike benefitted from the PCIII after a dealer service.

And benefitted even more, after I loosened the valves.

 

Concerning the PCIII vs. Tuneboy at altitude, I think the difference is that the PCIII changes the  percentage after the algorithm or whatever is modified by the air pressure sensor, while the tune boy modifies it before the air pressure sensor makes the correction. I suppose Wayne would know for sure.

 

Despite my disagreements, Great Post Jeff in Ohio!

Ohio could use you to overhaul their voting machines,    as you are obviously honest and logical.

I guess I should go back and find the Aprillia post about someone knocking out their ECU.

Could they restore it?

40362[/snapback]

 

it was some triumph or aprilia dude that got a retarded ECU. he sucked the stock settings out of the ECU and when he tried to load them back in, the ECU just said 'ahhh duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh' took him awile to bring it back to life, but it can be done. Does not sound like a comforting process to me. I guess one shoudl also rememebr to SAVE their stock settings before tuneboying it also! The Clarkie guy on the aprilia forum really does not like tuneboy for that one reason of the ECU going retarded. Plus map optimiazation (when not using it like a PCIII ) takes forever plus a day...........

[Cliff]

-Cliffs My15M is his version of a Marelli unit that basically just blows open the code so you guys can access it.  His unit will set you back about $290 US according to his latest info for a 'full kit' that you must be slapped into YOUR ECU.  That means, unless you have a spare ECU ($100 on Ebay maybe??), then there is probably no going back after you gut yours.  Also, he gives no price on his optimizer.  How much for that?? 

 

The latest prices since 1st Jan have changed. The AU$700 for the assembled and tested ECU now includes the OEM ECU ( subject to availability ) and postage. The Optimiser price is hidden on the bottom of the Optimiser page. I've forgotten to update to the latest which will be AU$300 assembled inc postage and the full kit being AU$150 inc postage

[callison]

-Cliffs My15M is his version of a Marelli unit that basically just blows open the code so you guys can access it.

 

I disagree. Take a look at: How Cliff built his ECU and you can get a much better idea as to what it takes to develope and deploy an EFI management unit. Fascinating reading, regardless of whether you're going to purchase one of Cliff's units or not. Keep in mind too, that the WM16 it was originally built to replace, has a very dark history with Guzzi's. The WM15 has fared much better (thankfully).

 

The My15M is an evolution on the My16M. The My16M wouldn't exist except for the positively evil behavior and high replacement cost of the WM ECU. Cliff's ECU does not share any code of WM's nor is his code open for users to access. What is open is that all of the parts are commercially available and the circuit diagram is (more or less) available on his web site (I say more or less, because Cliff has covered each section independently and does not have the entire schematic posted - although he might have and I missed it somehow). You can repair Cliff's ECU, you can't get schematics for WM ECU's and you wouldn't want to tear open a PCIII.

 

ALL of the various approaches for modifying the ignition on the V11 Sports offer some advantages and some disadvantages.