Guest Brian Robson Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I am smart enough not to try it with the 6 cm of fresh snow we have (what are you riding Brian Robson?). 40467[/snapback] I went for a ride to see if the highway was clear, but the snow just kept on falling...then went home and used the Jimmy. Avons act funny in the snow, with the large grooves filling up with snow, feeling like a tank track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I went for a ride to see if the highway was clear, but the snow just kept on falling...then went home and used the Jimmy. Avons act funny in the snow, with the large grooves filling up with snow, feeling like a tank track. 40475[/snapback] Yer crazy, mate! I could go out on my WR400 but not a road bike. Good on yah anyways. See you next weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Yesterday the new "Motorrad" arrived and I found a new picture what could be, IMHO, interesting for this thread, unless it has died already. It shows the right side of the Kawasaki Ninja ZX-RR and I want to focus your attention to at least one wide-band O2 sensor, making it possible that they are trying to make it faster running it closed-loop. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moto Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 go here for the great tuneboy vs. pciii debate that raged on the aprilia forum http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=tuneboy other jabs from Clarkie are here: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthr...oy&pagenumber=2 entertaining reading 40240[/snapback] more TuneBoy/PC debate here: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RacerX Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Yesterday the new "Motorrad" arrived and I found a new picture what could be, IMHO, interesting for this thread, unless it has died already. It shows the right side of the Kawasaki Ninja ZX-RR and I want to focus your attention to at least one wide-band O2 sensor, making it possible that they are trying to make it faster running it closed-loop. Hubert, interestingly enough my post on this disappered. Conspiracy? I can assure you that no current bikes use full closed loop... Esp. on any of the high-revving Japanese bikes (much less German, Italian, etc.). Trust me when I say I am/stay "well informed" on this. ToddGuzziTech.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emry Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Most racing teams use an O2 sensor on each pipe, but it merely for datalogging purposes. Full closed loop is much to slow to provide any benefit at 15,000 rpm. Needless to say that is when the teams normally want the most help. We would normally use the data from the O2 during practice to help determine and make minor mod's that needed to made to the fuel map. Burn a new EPROM and then test it again. Come race time, the O2 were often removed and plugged. Occansionaly they would be left in when ever we decided to use an "impending doom engine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianG Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 I bet the pilot loved getting on the "impending doom" machine!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Most racing teams use an O2 sensor on each pipe, but it merely for datalogging purposes. Full closed loop is much to slow to provide any benefit at 15,000 rpm. Needless to say that is when the teams normally want the most help. We would normally use the data from the O2 during practice to help determine and make minor mod's that needed to made to the fuel map. Burn a new EPROM and then test it again. Come race time, the O2 were often removed and plugged. Occansionaly they would be left in when ever we decided to use an "impending doom engine." 40737[/snapback] Hey! If it's not too much to ask, what team have you worked for to learn all this. It sounds like an interesting experience. I would really like to learn some of this hands on, real life tuning stuff. I know it is not easy to share but I am interested! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I can assure you that no current bikes use full closed loop. It was only a few years ago you could say no current jap bike uses EFI. Those high revving/high performance engines must have carbs. Those Jap engineers most know something heh. Clearly those running My16M closed loop including myself have been deluding ourselves. Hell I better double check my code maybe its not actually running closed loop at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helicopterjim R.I.P. Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Hey Cliff I'm still with ya! It has been minus 2 to 4 degrees here so not much I can report but I have not been swayed. I have my V10 now too so there are more possibilities and my friend Richy wants to check out tuneboy for his TT600. Will be in touch when the weather allows! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emry Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I worked with Yoshimura Suzuki here in the US during the late nineties. As for the "impending doom" engines most teams have one stuck somewhere in the trailer. Often they are normally used only during qualifying but there has been times when a rider choose to use them during a race for the small advantage they may have offered. Sometimes they finish, sometimes they don't. Those high revving/high performance engines must have carbs. During the 96' 97' year the GSXR 750 ran carbs but in 98 FI was used. It was actually disliked by most riders initally, we hadn't sorted the "light switch effect" yet. But the carb or FI versions both made similar power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 .....actually disliked by most riders initally, we hadn't sorted the "light switch effect" yet. But the carb or FI versions both made similar power. 40750[/snapback] But the carbed ones had probably nothing you could seriously call idle! Besides of the quite big inlet diameter my V11 has, these ugly flaps or blades with protruding bolts and a not streamlined axis do look far inferior to the smooth but now retired 40 mm Dell'Ortos I still have (no pump, no choke, just function). And they are crap compared to any modern Keihin or similar... Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 ...race time, the O2 were often removed and plugged. ..." 40737[/snapback] An other part that would not fail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuhaV Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Clearly those running My16M closed loop including myself have been deluding ourselves. Hell I better double check my code maybe its not actually running closed loop at all. 40744[/snapback] Cliff, The rest of the reluctant open-loop (but maybe not so open-minded) world will follow your lead eventually, but maybe it will still take some time. I still take it to be a huge oversimplification to simply state that closed-loop is no good, because there are so many different ways closed-loop feedback can be applied. And the lambda sensors are also becoming better and faster day-by-day. For example, if closed-loop is not applicable in very fast accelerations (as kind of argued earlier in this threat), when the throttle is opened quickly in excess of a given measure, it is quite simple to write down into the ECU software a condition that in this case closed-loop is not applied. Such a condition could hold, for example, 0.5 seconds and after that the ECU may revert softly back to closed-loop mode. So, was this open-loop or closed-loop use ? The engine could easily stay 95 % of the time in closed-loop mode and spent the rest of the time in open-loop mode. A good base map is needed even with the closed-loop system, but the closed-loop can fine tune that map to be as perfect as possible in changing engine, weather, gasoline etc. conditions. BTW, I need really to check if it is actually the closed-loop that prevents me hitting 15000 rpm with my Sport br, JuhaV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emry Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Sorry Cliff, I wasn't trying to suggest any problem with your system running in closed loop. I am sure that your code works just fine. I was merely commenting that currently no "race" bike were using closed loop, since that was a picture of a kitted zx. For a road going motorcycle I would take a closed loop system any day over open loop. Well put JuhaV but it isn't your Fi keeping your rev limit so low, its your pistons hitting your valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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