DIY philosophy of many MG owners.

[rktman1]

Please don't misunderstand the intent of this thread.

 

I was asking about the *EFFECT* of MG owners 'doing it themselves' and purchasing used bikes on the MG corporation.

 

I don't do anything more than normal preventive maintenance: Oil/filter changes, radiator svc (non_MG bikes), wheel removal for tire replacement, etc. I can get away with this here in Tucson because we have a fine MG/Ducati/Aprilia/MV Augusta dealership: Renaissance M/C, owner Steve Spreter.

 

Tim

[Baldini]

...I was asking about the *EFFECT* of MG owners 'doing it themselves' and purchasing used bikes on the MG corporation....

 

For twenty years I've ridden used Guzzis & maintained them myself. My first Tonti is still on the road. When it came time 2 years ago I wanted a new bike I looked at Aprilia, Triumph, Japs etc but in the end, cos of those years on them I could only buy a Guzzi.

So eventually, least off me, MG got some payback, I love em.

I'd never seen MotoGuzzi as a corporation, it was a small company making motorcycles. With Aprilia, now Piaggio, I guess it is part of a corporation, a Brand. To me that's a shame, but I guess that's the ways it goes.

 

What effect do you think it has, Tim?

 

KB

[rktman1]

You would have to admit that if EVERY Guzzi owner bought used (never new) and did all their own maintenance/repairs, which means only purchasing OE parts from a dealer, it would have a very bad effect. Now, of course, this is an exageration.

 

I was just wondering if this is contributing to MG's financial problems. The 'buy new every few years' philosophy of most other brand owners (Big 4, HD, BMW, etc.) HAS to be good for those companies. I'm not advocating this (please read my intial post).

 

Tim

[Baldini]

...The 'buy new every few years' philosophy of most other brand owners (Big 4, HD, BMW, etc.) HAS to be good for those companies..

 

Well, it means they expand. They get bigger so they gotta sell more to feed themselves.

There's something about Guzzis that is to do with who they are & where they are. It may be that that is going now, maybe that is the only way the name will survive, as another lifestyle brand choice.

 

KB

[al_roethlisberger]

This is a good conversation, and one that's been had on forums like Wildguzzi several times, and one I had with Jason(owner) at Moto Italiano the other day...

 

It's a paradoxical situation sometimes...

 

The guys that most complain about any changes, and laud the "basic" design of the current Guzzi engine layout, design, etc... are typically owners of older bikes, that are the type that aren't really interested in a "reskinned" version of the old standby design, and are disinterested in any totally new ones either... and yes they do most maintenance themselves as well.

 

So, although MG and Dealers hear their perspective, these "loyal old school" owners, typically do not go right out and buy new models, even if the old engine design is maintained. This BTW is not opinion, it is reflected in sales stats/demographics for the brand.

 

With this in mind, to "grow" the brand, MG will have to develop some actually new designs....

 

What does this mean with regard to the "do your own maintenance" question... not much as a direct relationship, but as an indirect observation/relationship.... I would venture to say that most "new model" buyers will be of the newer mold(like it or not) and want a low maintenance bike, that would be of a "modern" design.

 

So, simply put... typically the guys doing their own maintenance are of the "I like the older design school" and aren't "growing the brand", although they are indeed very "loyal"... but that doesn't always translate to real sales for MG... if you get my drift.

 

So, MG needs to embrace new customers, and to do so, they need new designs(not reskins), and those customers will probably be of the type that expect maintenance(to some degree) from the vendor.

 

I can't say whether this is good or bad per se.... but is just the business model/observation that many dealers have observed.

 

BTW, this is not simply "Al's" observation, this is what I've gleaned from chatting with some dealers, and other conversation

 

al

[Baldini]

...The guys that most complain about any changes, and laud the "basic" design of the current Guzzi engine layout, design, etc... are typically owners of older bikes, that are the type that aren't really interested in a "reskinned" version of the old standby design, and are disinterested in any totally new ones either...

 

Al,

I argued this when I first joined this forum & I ain't changed now. Maybe I'm an exception but after 20years on Tontis I bought a new Scura. I love it. Compared with other bikes it's not much different to my Tonti. But compared with the Tonti it's lost something, the basic components aren't quite so solid. Mostly the frame doesn't have the structural integrity of the Tonti. I don't see why, given decent leadership, Guzzi couldn't carry the Tonti thru into a modern bike. Ducati still use a steel trellis frame. No, there's definitely something gone from Guzzi's vision.

I'm an old git, but I don't see why everyone has to be chasing a market, pushing a "brand". I don't see why companies have to expand, why economies have to "grow". Make a good product, forget the bullshit, people will buy it.

KB

[Guest Bruce]

Two other well known brands have a similar problem with new models, BMW and HD, and they've done great. Although I don't have data ta back this up my perception is that neither of them have been successful yet with with bikes outside their basic fare but they own their niches.

Both use the same old engine as their center piece, both are expensive even in the face of arguably better alternatives, and they never go on sale. They both also have strong dealer networks and focus heavily on quality. A BMW dealer told me that BMWs prime objective is to provide excellent service because riders now expect similar quality to cars.

I read about alot of riders whose MG experience goes something like this; Bought the bike, loved the bike, owned it 30 days untill it died on the side of the road, had the bike spend the summer at a dealer who didn't seem to care, sold the bike for cheap, hate the bike.

So for those who know them and love them why buy new when there is a steady supply of barely used for cheap ( this is a symptom, not the problem ).

If I were king of the Moto Guzzi Company my goals would be to bring quality and service levels up to a modern acceptable level, build a strong dealer network, and stop the turn over. Then I'd worry about the new models and attracting new customers. Not a real sexy strategy for sure but what is the point of attracting new customers if you lose them in short order. Both BMW and HD started with small loyal customer bases and built them into large customer bases by adding one new loyal customer at a time.

[Martin Barrett]

one new loyal customer at a time

 

Chap I work with has had in the last two years: F650CS; Rockster; Boxercup and now back to F650GS all new except the Rockster which was dealers demo bike, and before that a R1100RT. He says he will stick with BMW now, he is allways singing their praises when it comes to customer care. He's had a few quality control or failures but they're fixed PDQ. He keeps telling me to get rid of the Lemans before the warranty expires and get a BMW. At times seems like good advice, but they don't quite tug the heart strings the same way.

 

The Lemans is my first new bike, and I bought it as a keeper. If it was writen off or stolen I would replace it with another, but I can't see myself buying anything in the next 10 years or so. I won't make them in to a high volume manufacturer.

 

One of the ways the volume manufacturers do it is with year on year revisions. You don't want to be seen on last years model, this one is lighter stiffer more powerfull flexible etc. Unless you're a volume manufactuer you couldn't afford the R&D.

 

I think Guzzi will probably remain a quirky niche manufacturer, for those who know that you can get enougth real world performance out of an air cooled twin. I don't think Guzzi will survive an engine change unless they can do what Aprilla did with the RSV, and sustain it.

[Lex]

When this was first posted I didn't have time to make a post but thought I would later. Well, the posts up to now have covered most of what I planed to say so I'll try to keep this brief.

 

DYI? Yup, as much as I can. First because I enjoy it and second because my dealer is 500 miles (800 KM) round trip.

 

How does this effect Guzzi? Probably negatively but, as was pointed out above many dealers, MG North America and the factory all bring it on themselves by treating their customers like crap. I am lucky to have a decent dealer (Munroe's in San Francisco) but my bike was built by drunken monkeys and the support from MGNA has been poor. I got my bike for $4500 USD below retail and feel it was a good deal. If I had paid retail I would be furious with the problems and the treatment I've gotten from MGNA.

 

Speaking just for myself, I'd be very happy if Guzzi could build a more modern bike even at the cost of my not being able to do as much of the work. I'd keep my 2001 V11 Sport for fun and buy a new bike for touring, two up riding, etc. However, I have serious doubts that Guzzi could do it right and even more strongly doubt the MGNA and many dealers in the US could support such a bike. I fear any new Guzzi's will be like the first ten years of the Oilhead BMWs, just as screwed up as the Airheads but harder to fix and no fun to work on.

 

Slightly off the point but I think relevant, I've been looking at the KTM 950. I am very intrigued by the bike but it is a red flag to me that an oil change is $120 USD. Why so much? You have to remove one gas tank (it has one on each side) to get to the oil tank and the bike has two screens (clean) and two filers (replace). This just strikes me as stupid. In the same amount of time I could adjust the valves, go for a short ride to warm things up, change the engine, transmission and final drive oil, change the plugs and sync the TBs on my Guzzi. Whether I am doing it myself or paying someone else to do it I want ease of maintenance to have been considered in the design of the bike. That rules out new BMWs, Ducatis, pretty much anything Japanese and leaves me with a limited set of options.

 

If Guzzi follows BMW and KTM's direction with a new bike I'll turn into a slightly more progressive version of the round head Guzzi rider, I will not be buying any new bikes from Moto Guzzi just as I have stopped buying new BMWs after selling my third Oilhead. Between my wife and I my garage has seen more than a dozen BMWs in the last twenty years, a few used but most new and sold at or near retail price. I know how customers spending that kind of money would effect Moto Guzzi, MGNA and the dealerships.

 

I think Guzzi needs to recognize that on one hand the "old guard" will not buy new bikes but not forget that there is a small niche for a modern bike that allows an owner to do the basic stuff (oil change, plug change, at least check the valve clearance, etc.) and will not require a home loan when the dealer does what the owner can't or doesn't want to do, a bike where the first task of changing the rear shock isn't to find the damn thing but is not a child (however wonderful we think the current engine might be) of sixties design.

 

OK, brief is not my best area, sorry to rant so long.

 

Lex

[stormsedge]

Rocket, I've seen it mentioned numerous times in the MGNOC newsletter that "we" might want to look at new bikes and support the "company"...but, in the next sentence it is typically pointed out that the "company" may not support you. I bought my Sport second hand from a HD chop shop---narrowly escaping a HD purchase. I, like many others have received poor support from the "company" although the dealer seemed to have some interest (though they have not answered any of my emails since my last expenditure with them and they only have one Breva in stock...maybe they are going straight Ducati? btw, did I mention 250 miles away?). I have had no trouble getting parts for the Sport from various outlets (including one in Italy)...no different from my '79 SP from that perspective. My mom and dad bought me tools for my 14th birthday (and Mom has bought sizable toolsets for every male grandchild at 16 as well). Dad towed home a comatose 1940 International pickup shortly thereafter and told me if I could get it running, I could have it (looking back, I realize that International had as many lives as a MG ...but we fired it up a week later. Long story? Sure, but I've always done the majority of my own work until new cars with warranties drove me from some of it. The effect on MG (the "company")? I doubt if it has made any imprint...they are the result of their own business practices and philosophies. I am told that HD doesn't support their older models well either...maybe we will see another version of the same thing? k

[rktman1]

Thanks for all the replies. Sounds like most here feel that Guzzi has created their own problems.

 

BTW, my moniker, rktman1, doesn't have anything to do with motorcycles or how I ride. It's a nickname I got in High School playing football. I could motor fast in a straight line, no moves, and ended up as an offensive guard (sort of like right field in baseball). I should drop it now since it really doesn't apply any more.

 

Tim

[stormsedge]

We allow "glory days" here.

[Ballacraine]

If Moto Guzzi want customer loyalty, they have to reciprocate.

 

For example, their non-commital attitude to the single-plate clutch issue does them no favours at all. An American company in this situation would be falling over themselves to put it right, for fear of litigation.

 

On the present performance, I would not buy a new / nearly new Moto Guzzi again, because I have no faith left in their support.

 

I would buy another older bike of their's though

 

Nige. <_>

[al_roethlisberger]

 

For example, their non-commital attitude to the single-plate clutch issue does them no favours at all. An American company in this situation would be falling over themselves to put it right, for fear of litigation.

 

 

Nige.  <_>

42489[/snapback]

 

 

I don't really think this is quite true... see my most recent YAINJMG Thread

 

Honestly, although MG has done some pretty knuckleheaded things, they seem to have about the same number of "issues" as some big guys, and they "own up to them" at about the same rate

 

Yamaha has a "ticking valve" issue on the new FJRs.... that they won't hardly acknowledge.

 

Honda had issues with the new GoldWing and VTX that took the owner community a while to get them to address...

 

Kawasaki has cam issues.... (see thread above)

 

Suzuki had piston defects in their Bandit 1200 that took a miracle to finally get them to admit.

 

... Ducati and it's cams, and the auto makers... sheesh <_>

 

 

Anyway, MG has some warts, and I think that a lot of the pain comes from the importers as well at times. But in general, considering it's size, I think MG has done pretty well by the newer bikes as far as most issues. There are some notable exceptions such as the initial responses to the hydraulic lifters and single plate clutch on the cruisers, but even those at least have their attention now.

 

I am certainly one of the many that have complained about many an "issue" with the bikes, but am also the first to say that in almost every case, MG has taken care of me.... although it is also fair to say that I fix a lot of things myself so

 

 

[Baldini]

...their non-commital attitude to the single-plate clutch issue ...On the present performance, I would not buy a new / nearly new Moto Guzzi again, because I have no faith left in their support...

 

I think the clutches that broke were fixed under warranty? Out of maybe 1,500 bikes we heard of 4 failures? That's less than 0.3%.

 

Warranty on my bike was up last month. In 11,000 miles I had gearbox pawl spring break twice, two rear wheel bearings go (spacer too short), fork seals go, brake torque arm rubber deteriorate, tacho mist. Couple of the problems took a bit of looking round to fix but nothing major really. Bike was off the road for maybe 3 weeks with pawl spring problem (wasn't sure why it broke - fix is now known - I hope! - so it would now be a 2 hour job). All parts were replaced under warranty (Thanks to Corsa Italiana, London).

 

I would buy a new Guzzi again, or an old one, but I'd be keeping this one n'all. Fancy a Cali/Jackal actually....

 

Ballacraine, Does your bike have a problem?

 

KB