OIL LEAK!!!!!

[mikethebike]

My 3 year old V11 has just sprung an oil leak - a week after our third trip to Italy (Mandello, of course) from Scotland and having just clocked up mile 27,000 – I suppose the timing could have been a lot worse – on top of one of the many Alpine passes we crossed for instance. Today, as I walked towards the bike for my 30 mile ride home from work I spotted a damp patch under the sump. As I got closer I could see an oil slick down the side of the engine block but could not tell where it was coming from. I cleaned up the oil, checked that the oil level was OK and decided to proceed homeward, stopping every few miles to clean up the leakage and check that it had not got bad enough to risk running too low. Got home, cleaned up the engine and fired her up. A leak immediately started from the right side of the timing cover beside the frame mounting. A piece of gasket was sticking out at this point which, having consulted the workshop manual, looks to be beside an oil-way running from the block into the timing cover. (Is there an oil-way here or is it just a dowel? If it’s not an oil-way then the timing chest must be full of oil but there’s still plenty in the sump so I don’t think this is likely. Must be an oil-way?) Looks like an engine-out job to fix. Sat down, had a smoke and a think.

If I remove the oil cooler etc I should get access to all the timing cover screws. But I would only be able to move the timing cover forward by about an inch before it hits the frame. If I cut the new gasket at the top I could fit it in the inch gap and apply gasket cement at the top split (this has worked on other jobs before). If it doesn’t work I’m no worse off because I will have to strip all this area to get the engine out anyway. Worth a try? Has anyone had a similar problem? Has anyone got a better fix?

Any words of encouragement would be appreciated.

cheers, Mike

[jrt]

I can be encouraging, but I haven't taken the timing chest off a spine frame- so I don't know whether you have to drop the engine or not. I would suspect not, but I could be wrong....

This particular location for an oil leak has been reported before. I guess you have the black painted engine cases? One cause for leaks has been a bit of paint stuck between the mating surfaces and eventually comprimising the seal. Fortunately, it's an easy fix. Remove off the alternator rotor (probably the most difficult operation of this), remove the timing case to expose the timing chain. Check it while your there- it should be fine. Clean both surfaces, put in new gasket and some sealant- my current favorite is hylomar- and button it up. An afternoon's work if all goes well. Eh, say 3 beers worth.

If you haven't removed the alternator rotor before, there's a trick to it. Remove the center bolt, insert a hardened dowel about the same diameter, and just longer than the threads on the bolt. Re-insert the bolt, tighten it down, and it'll pop the alternator right off. Or tighten it up, wack it with a rubber (not metal!) mallet if it is stubborn and it should pop off.

I'm sure I've missed something....but it is pretty easy.

[al_roethlisberger]

Mike,

 

This is a relatively common failure for all 2002(and 01 Rosso Mandello) "fuzzy" engine paint bikes.

 

Mine failed exactly the same way after less than 500 miles on the clock.

 

The reported cause was due to some of the "fuzzy" engine paint either getting onto the mating surfaces and/or the fastener threads causing them to loosen. Either way, the gasket eventually works out as you describe, then it becomes a major leak.

 

I think you can replace this gasket without MAJOR surgery, as the shop had mine fixed in a day or so. You of course will have to remove regulator, alternator, horns, etc... to get to the timing cover, but I don't think you'll have to remove the front sub-frame(I could be wrong) or drop the engine.

 

However, once fixed by thoroughly cleaning the mating surfaces and perhaps chasing and blue loctite'ing the fastener holes... this is not a recurring problem.

 

 

Good luck!

al

[belfastguzzi]

There have been plenty of posts on this problem, including a recent thread (about a month ago?). Your gasket survived a surprisingly long time. Like Al's, mine went after a few hundred miles (black painted 2002 model) and started putting out a lot of oil. If you don't want to, you don't have to remove anything at all to make a permanent fix.

 

Clean the area and put silicone over the leaking area. A perfectly good and un-noticable fix. Search for other threads that give more details and photos.

[pete roper]

If you haven't removed the alternator rotor before, there's a trick to it.  Remove the center bolt, insert a hardened dowel about the same diameter, and just longer than the threads on the bolt.  Re-insert the bolt, tighten it down, and it'll pop the alternator right off.  Or tighten it up, wack it with a rubber (not metal!) mallet if it is stubborn and it should pop off.

I'm sure I've missed something....but it is pretty easy.

56848[/snapback]

 

Jason, the good news is that on models with the Ducati alternator all the faffing about pressing the rotor off is a thing of the past! The Ducati system uses a straight shaft and once the stator is off and the crank nut removed it, (the rotor.) usually just slips off.

 

While I haven't done anything inside the timing chest of a V11 I've done several 1100 Sports with the same basic layout. Really all it involves is removing all the extraneous munt that hangs about in front of the chest itself, (Horns, fuel pump (?) coils (?) regulator/rectifier.) so you can get clear access to the timing chest bolts. Support the sump on something, (not because the engine will flop down or anything, simply so as not to stress the fasteners at the back of the motive unit.) then undo the bolts from the front sub-frame to the timing chest. It will probably help if you loosen the bolts that hold the sub frame to the spine too and then it can be spread a bit or swung forward. After that it's simply a matter of undoing the kazillion screws that hold on the timing chest cover, (Noting that the bottom six are longer than the top eight.) and then gently prying the cover forward and off.

 

The two things you are thinking are oil dowels are simply locating dowels to ensure the chest cover sits correctly and to make the fitting of a new gasket easier. If you're lucky the majority of the gasket will come off with the cover and removing it will be simple. Sometimes they peel off really easily, sometimes they stick like shit to a blanket, the good thing is that they *usually* stick to the cover which makes removing 'em a whole lot easier than having to get at the front of the crankcase! If you use a scraper to remove the old gasket be careful not to gouge the surface, if you have a decent shop nearby take it in and ask if you can use their gasket whizzer, (Proper name? A 'Microfine surface preparation tool'.) which is basically an air pistol that uses small discs of Scotchbrite material to abrade off the old gasket but it's action is gentle enough to not damage the alloy, (Unless you're cretinous! It can be done but it's not easy!) an added benefit of doing it this way is that any remaining paint on the mating surface of the case will be removed helping prevent the problem from recurring.

 

I never use any form of snot on these gaskets unless I think the surface might be dodgy. I just lightly grease the new gasket to help it stick in place and then offer up the prepared and cleaned cover and tap it home with my fist. It is worth re checking the timing cover bolts after the engine has heat cycled a few times and nipping up any loose ones but after that you should be able to forget about it for 100,000km or so.

 

Pete

[callison]

I swapped out timing chest covers in an hour and a half. Later on, I replaced the timing chest gasket in about an hour. It's not terribly difficult and you don't have to loosen the upper bolts for the front engine subframe on the spine either. Once you get the horns and regulator off, it becomes real obvious what has to actually be removed or loosened. Then the cover can be jockeyed out and the repairs begun.

[mikethebike]

thanks you guys for the words of wisdom.

It's a big relief not to have to drop the motor.

A new gasket is in the post so the spanners will be out this weekend.

Cheers! Mike

[mikie]

Two friends of mine with Scuras encountered the same problem. The question I have is this: If the fuzzy cases have been exchanged, does that significantly reduce the chances of this problem ever occurring?

[mikethebike]

Strip-down now complete with only one or two minor troubles. I don’t think paint overspill was the cause of my gasket failure. There was some paint on the timing cover surface but not where the leak was. Dodgy/damaged original gasket I reckon.

I had to remove the front sub-frame to get the timing cover off. Earlier bikes have two horizontal cross-tubes on the sub-frame which would allow enough clearance for the cover to come off. My sub-frame has a third diagonal tube running from the lower horizontal tube down to the left engine mount. This prevents the cover from coming far enough forward to clear the crankshaft. Made the job a bit longer. If anyone is going to carry out a timing cover gasket replacement get a new crankshaft oil-seal and four M6 x 30mm long socket head screws as well as a new gasket. I decided that replacing the oil-seal would prevent me worrying about a leak developing there having disturbed it – it looked OK but better safe than sorry. New seal only cost a couple of quid and looks better than the 27000 mile job it's replacing. The four generator cross-head screws did not survive the strip-down as they are made from low-grade steel and were well and truly seized in the cover – two heads rounded and only just came loose with some serious mole-grip action. Also, be sure to remove the sub-frame before tackling the generator and timing cover screws – access is much better and you will save a lot of time. Don’t forget to remove the side-stand as it is attached to both the crankcase and the timing cover. Generator rotor slipped off with a bit of gentle persuasion with a couple of tyre-levers. Actually, it took quite a bit of persuasion, and the rotor came loose with a mighty crack.

All parts are now cleaned up and ready for reassembly. Stuck-on gasket bits were removed using my trusty credit card scraper – tough enough to scrape off the gasket but soft enough not to scratch the aluminium casings.

Only other problem I discovered was the three rubber bushes that support the ignition coils had parted company with their threaded studs so the coils were only supported by the HT leads and other cables. They wouldn’t go far but I’ll rig something up to lash them in securely. (Too mean to buy new bushes)

I don’t have a garage so I’ve been relying on the good Scottish summer weather –HA HA HA – to find time between the rain to get the job done. Amused the neighbours by climbing under the bike cover to do one or two jobs with just my legs sticking out.

With all the sub-frame malarkey I reckon the whole job could be done in a day.

How many pints is that?

I’ll let you know when I’m back on the road.

[rossoandy]

Hi all,just wanted to add my Rosso Mandello suffered exactly the same timing cover oil leak,top rh side near mounting point the gasket protruding from the cover. Real odd they all fail in the same place!

Of course mine failed when I was away on the Isle O Mann at the TT !!

Top marks to Paul Dedman Performance on the island,they had it fixed within 24hrs for me.

As a final comment I needed them again this year when the bevel box side rear wheel brg failed, again during the TT. Once again fixed instantly!

[al_roethlisberger]

....exactly the same place for my failure <_>

 

Right side of timing chest(as sitting on bike), about 1/3 of the way from top, small little protruding piece of gasket...

 

al

[mikethebike]

Latest news of the rebuild plus my theory on what causes the leak.......

Most parts now reassembled, just got to make final connections and refit tank etc.

When I wiggled the sub-frame back into position the holes would not line up with the frame. After much head scratching and trying to fit the screws in different orders I put a jack under the sump and to my relief the holes came into alignment. Phew. I had placed blocks under the sump before I removed the sub-frame but the engine still dropped by about 1mm. I’ll make sure the other engine mounts are tight.

Anyway, everyone who has had a timing cover leak reports that it occurs in the same position – beside the right engine mount.

You’ve heard about the infamous Japanese water torture where water drips onto someone’s head and eventually wears through the skull and into the brain and the guy goes mad or something like that? Also water erosion on stone etc...

Anyway, my theory…… instead of water dripping, imagine boiling oil droplets being fired at high velocity – that’s what happens when the timing chain is thrashing round. The chain makes a sudden change of direction round the camshaft chainwheel right at the point where the leaks happen and the oil is flung off. The cover joint is right in line with the chain. The spray of hot oil droplets then eats away at the gasket until it gives up the ghost and pops out – hey presto a leak. When I checked out the source of the leak when it started I was surprised that oil started to emerge immediately I fired up the engine. That’s why I thought there must be an oil way inside the cover but it was just the force of the oil thrown from the chain oozing through the tear in the gasket.

If that’s the cause I don’t know why it’s not more common.

Anyone got any other ideas?

[al_roethlisberger]

Dunno, but my gasket was "sticking out" as delivered from the showroom(hindsight is always 20/20).

 

I think it might be a combination of what you describe, and poorly fitted gasket.

 

I haven't heard of anyone elses ever failing again once replaced properly, and don't think I've heard of any of the newer "non fuzzy" engine paint bikes exhibiting this

 

al

[emry]

Mine failed twice in the same spot. Instead of letting the dealer fix it the second time I took the time to paint the cases and choose not to use a gasket on the front cover. (This was covered somewhere else already) I used a thin layer of "Hylomar". So far so good.

[mikethebike]

Bike is now back on the road and 100 plus miles ridden and oil is staying in the engine. So far so good.

I had a Victor Meldrew “I don’t belieeeeve it” moment at the final stage of the rebuild when I discovered an oil slick coming from the rear transmission box. Oil was leaking from between the box and the swinging arm. There was definitely no leak before I started the timing cover job. The bike was supported by a paddock stand during the timing cover work so maybe it had something to do with the bike being raised at the back end for a week?. It’s a seep rather than a leak now that the bike is back in action – a couple of drops can be collected on a cloth stuffed under the swing-arm after 25/30 miles. I’ll monitor this and hope it clears up (wishful thinking) or at least doesn’t get any worse until it’s time for a new back tyre when I’ll investigate further. Still love my Guzzi though.