Sloppage sheet prototype?

[Guest ratchethack]

As for Guzzichondria, I'm not supposed to worry when my oil pressure goes to 0 and stays there for several seconds? (The oil level was halfway between full and add, as checked by the method described above, when the pressure went to 0 on a drag start.) Or even better: I'm not supposed to plumb in an oil gauge to find out if the flickering oil light is really problem at all?

 

There's also a syndrome called "head in the sand" at work among Guzzisti.

Greg, Nog doesn't really mean what he said. Pay this no mind. He knows he's way behind on his maintenance and is looking for justifications to keep from feeling guilty - 'specially now that he's spending all his attention on the Buell.

 

Keep in mind he also said that faithfully sticking to the service intervals by the Guzzi manual is "extreme Guzzichondria". I reckon at least a few of us have Guzzis that'll be very happily running long-term since we seem to have the "disease".

[Guest ratchethack]

My only reservation about adding this plate is that as I envision it this will mean an arrangement of sandwiching the plate so one has sump-gasket-new plate-gasket-block to seal when changing filters or dropping the sump for cleanout. That isn't a big deal but it is a consideration. Pales of course to the possibility of starving engine for oil during hard acceleration.

Put me down for one, please, Pete.

I'd sure like one of the Havens to wade in on this to get their perspective.

How often do you drop y'er sump, Tx? I do it about once every other year and I figure this is overkill and only for peace of mind -- just to make sure nothin' scary has washed up on the screen. If you use a very light "saturation coat" of silicone seal rubbed into the gaskets with y'er fingers, they can be re-used many times without a trace of a leak.

 

Like you said, any extra hassle is pretty minor relative to oil starvation.

[Greg Field]

TxRider:

 

The plate will be sandwiched between the engine block and the top half of the sump. You will not need to remove it for oil changes, even if you remove the lower half of the sump.

[Guest Nogbad]

Greg, Nog doesn't really mean what he said. Pay this no mind. He knows he's way behind on his maintenance and is looking for justifications to keep from feeling guilty - 'specially now that he's spending all his attention on the Buell.

 

Keep in mind he also said that faithfully sticking to the service intervals by the Guzzi manual is "extreme Guzzichondria". I reckon at least a few of us have Guzzis that'll be very happily running long-term since we seem to have the "disease".

 

CHEEKY SOD!

 

Check your oil by slipping the dipstick into the hole but not engaging the threads. Yes, the factory manual says to thread it in, but the manual is wrong. Doing it this way reduces the likelihood of ever seeing the flickering oil light because the oil level will be higher to start. This will mean oil changes of 4 quarts or more.

 

 

Is this true?

 

How does this relate to the observation that the first half of the dipstick is consumed relatively quickly, and then the consumption stabilises. If I fill me sump up more, won't my oil consumption go up again? Also, if the oil level is higher, maybe a genuine "windage" plate will become necessary.

 

Incidentally, I tried accelerating to the max from a standing start up a local hill (14%) yesterday. The oil level is not full by the screwed in method and the light did not appear. This was after a fairly long ride in 30° + temperatures so the oil would be quite thin.

[Greg Field]

Nog:

 

Every engine is a little different. Mine, for example, appears to consume little or no oil (no change in level 2,000 miles). From what I've seen, most of the oil consumption is in the form of oil that gets through the breather system and is routed to the airbox. The amount of this will depend greatly on the condition of your bike's ring seal and the interplay of all the components in your breather system.

 

The dipstick thing is what we have been recommending at Moto I for several years. We have seen a lot of torched rod bearings, despite this advice. And it is noteworthy that the manuals for the Breva 1100 and Griso now recommend thise very same procedure. Keep yer erl topped up, for erl is far cheaper than crankshafts and bearings are.

[drjim99]

I have a V11 coming in in a couple of weeks for a service, with the owner's permission I'll whip the sump off and start work on designing a sloppage sheet if Greg doesn't get there first.

 

How many people would like one just out of interest?

 

Pete

 

Pete

 

I'll take one. Thanks!

 

Jim

[dlaing]

Dave:

 

Check your oil by slipping the dipstick into the hole but not engaging the threads. Yes, the factory manual says to thread it in, but the manual is wrong. Doing it this way reduces the likelihood of ever seeing the flickering oil light because the oil level will be higher to start. This will mean oil changes of 4 quarts or more.

 

As for Guzzichondria, I'm not supposed to worry when my oil pressure goes to 0 and stays there for several seconds? (The oil level was halfway between full and add, as checked by the method described above, when the pressure went to 0 on a drag start.) Or even better: I'm not supposed to plumb in an oil gauge to find out if the flickering oil light is really problem at all?

 

There's also a syndrome called "head in the sand" at work among Guzzisti.

Thanks for the tip.

That will make checking the oil level easier.

But Damn! Now you have me scared that my oil level has been too low.

Glad to see Nog's accelleration test passed, and I too have not noticed such a problem, but that does not mean there is not a problem.

I guess I'll buy some guzzichondria insurance just so I won't have to put in nearly 4 liters of oil.

I would be worried that the high mark with the dip stick not screwed in would rob the guzzi of precious power.

Has anyone done dynotests on a Guzzi to see if lower oil levels produce more power?

[txrider]

TxRider:

 

The plate will be sandwiched between the engine block and the top half of the sump. You will not need to remove it for oil changes, even if you remove the lower half of the sump.

 

Thanks for setting me straight on this. So we have from the top block-gasket-plate-gasket-upper half of sump-gasket-lower half sump, right? I'm still in for one if Pete is up for fabrication.

Always learning.

I've been off playing with other toys so pardon me if this is a stupid question but what's the track record on these for V11's?

[txrider]

Dave:

 

Check your oil by slipping the dipstick into the hole but not engaging the threads. Yes, the factory manual says to thread it in, but the manual is wrong. Doing it this way reduces the likelihood of ever seeing the flickering oil light because the oil level will be higher to start. This will mean oil changes of 4 quarts or more.

 

As for Guzzichondria, I'm not supposed to worry when my oil pressure goes to 0 and stays there for several seconds? (The oil level was halfway between full and add, as checked by the method described above, when the pressure went to 0 on a drag start.) Or even better: I'm not supposed to plumb in an oil gauge to find out if the flickering oil light is really problem at all?

 

There's also a syndrome called "head in the sand" at work among Guzzisti.

 

Greg, with all due respect, realizing you work on these things as a vocation, when you state the factory manual is wrong that runs up a red flag for me and I naturally want to ask- how do you know this to be true? Has MG advised this with a tech bulletin or is there some other authoratative source to substantiate this? And don't get me wrong, I'm not the challenging sort, just want to be sure of what I'm doing with my bike. I'd hate to overfill and then have windage and weird pressure signs with oil running up and out strange places. (More guzzichondria there, huh?)

[pete roper]

Greg, with all due respect, realizing you work on these things as a vocation, when you state the factory manual is wrong that runs up a red flag for me and I naturally want to ask- how do you know this to be true?

 

 

Guzzi have a long and less than illustrious history of supplying information that is inadequate, inaccrate and quite often downright wrong! Sad but true.

 

While it is very easy to assume that the 'Factory knows best' the sad fact is that quite often the factory doesn't know best, or it will make choices based on lowering production costs or to pander to whatever is trendy at the time.

 

Why the 'Broad Sump' was addopted was mainly, (my guess.) because people had been pissing an moaning for years about not being able to change the poxy oil filter without removing the sump. There *may* also have been an issue of trying to improve ground clearance and lower the mass of the engine in the frame a tad but I'll wager the main reason was that they wanted a quick-fix for the oil filter *problem*. Since there are several people here who have 'V' sumps on their spineframes I don't know how valid the 'Ground clearance' argument is but I do know from having looked inside 'Broad Sump' models that, IMHO, the whole oil cooler thermostat, PR valve, Oil cooler mounting bizzo looks like a horrible Heath Robinson lash up and it is obvious even to the untrained eye that when you're accelerating hard the oil is going to migrate rearwards. If you want to see the final result of this happening have a look here;

 

http://www.guzzitech.com/shrapnel/Bugger_1.JPG

 

No, that wasn't a direct result of the oil starvation but it started a train of events that led to that!

 

Greg has been working on Guzzis probably longer than me, he works at one of the most respected Guzzi shops in North America, I'll tell you, I listen very closely to anything Greg says and would trust it a lot more than most of the old tosh that comes out of the factory

 

Pete

[Guest ratchethack]

The plate will be sandwiched between the engine block and the top half of the sump. You will not need to remove it for oil changes, even if you remove the lower half of the sump.

Thanks for setting me straight on this. So we have from the top block-gasket-plate-gasket-upper half of sump-gasket-lower half sump, right? . . . . . Always learning.

YIKES! I had envisioned it in the wrong place! This puts the midpoint on the dipstick about 2 1/4" below the plate - not merely 1"!

 

EDIT: I just took out the dipstick and went for another "eyeball" depth guage measurement. It's hard to get this accurate, but now it looks like the midpoint on the dipstick is about 1" below the UPPER joint after all, which fits in with what Greg said back on post #50. I think I must've looking below the upper joint the first time 'round.

 

Thanks for the clarification, Greg.

 

Good thing I ain't ordered my gaskets yet!

 

Seems to me that with the plate in there, it automatically becomes less risky WRT losing excess oil thru the breather and also WISER to run it higher on the dipstick as Greg recommends.

[Garsdad]

I have a V11 coming in in a couple of weeks for a service, with the owner's permission I'll whip the sump off and start work on designing a sloppage sheet if Greg doesn't get there first.

 

How many people would like one just out of interest?

 

Pete

 

 

It's probably on another thread, but what is the expected cost?

[dlaing]

YIKES! I had envisioned it in the wrong place! This puts the midpoint on the dipstick about 2 1/4" below the plate - not merely 1"!

 

Thanks for the clarification, Greg.

 

Good thing I ain't ordered my gaskets yet!

 

Dammit -- now I gotta know why it goes in the "upper" position rather than the "lower"?? In the "upper" position, isn't there enough open space below the plate to allow the oil to slosh forward enough to expose the pickup??

I think you are mis-comprehending.

The windage plate will be where the pan gasket is.

The dipstick will be where it always is, but it will be read at a higher height than the manual suggests. (kind of like we aren't high enough to read what some dipsticks post )

So, if the mid-point of the dipstick was an inch below the gasket and windage plate, now it will roughly level with the gasket and the windage plate.

...or maybe I got it all wrong

EDIT

I guess I have it all wrong, unless Pete has a different idea than Greg???????

I did not even realize the sump had an upper half.

Then it sounds like alot of work to install the windage plate?????????????????

[Guest ratchethack]

I think you are mis-comprehending.

. . . .

...or maybe I got it all wrong

Yeah, I thought I had made a mistake, but this itself was a mistake.

 

I just edited my post.

 

I don't think you've quite got it yet, though.

[dlaing]

The way I see it now is you have the oil pan, the sump and the crank case and Greg wants to put it not between oil pan and sump, but between sump and crank case.

So, like an inch or two higher than the pan gasket. (EDIT I just measured roughly an inch and a quarter higher)

It seems to me that won't help much with the slosh.

But I sure could be wrong.