Skeeve Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Just curiousity: Given that the v11 engine is just an evolutionary extension of the prior 2v mills, what kind of parts commonality do we find w/ older/other Guzzis? Obviously, the changes made when going from roundfin to square were extensive, but what fits what? I know you can drop whole engines/transmissions into older frames, but suppose you had pieces parts from a couple of wrecks, & wanted to combine parts from say an 80s 850 T5 with a 90s 1100 Sporti with a post-millenial Coppa d'Crasho? Just how extensive can the frankenbiking go? Pete? Greg? Carl? Todd? Care to share your wisdom/experiences? You all seem to have encountered this to at least come degree; outside of obvious incompatibilities like not trying to put a Tonti-frame swingarm on a spiney (or vice versa), what kind of overlap in designs is possible (or particularly ill-advised! ) I'm not talking something legendary along the lines of Mother Goose here [1]; just the sort of "hey, this can work!" options open to back-yard mechanics...[2] Gentlemen, start your engines! [1] Mark Etheridge transplanted a Hi-Cam into a loop frame, iirc: it's listed as Peter Coronado's 1100i Eldo, but I'm positive that when PEter showed me Mother Goose, it was sporting the Hi-Cam from a Centauro [that granite grey engine paint was too unique to miss!] & that PEter had said the the Centauro w/ the 1100i engine from his [sob!] backed-up over Sporti had sold quickly for more money than Mark had spent on the donor Centauro... [2] This all comes to mind because I was thinking about my (admittedly, something of a mechanical genius!) brother who built 2 (extremely well!) working Honda CB160s out of 3 parts bikes back before I had my 1st minibike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd haven Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Skeeve, You ask a good question. Problem is, there is not a good answer when it comes to Guzzi. Parts microfilms are notoriously bad for not showing updates/supercessions. Even when diagrams show a part swap as feasible, there remains infamous Italian "parts-bin" swapping. Things are not always as they should be, even when they leave the factory. Rumor has it that previous owners have also been known to swap bits about, be it for technical or financial advantage. In short, you never really have a firm idea what you started with, or what you have to work with. Enter Mr. Richardson of Moto International in Seattle, and his book Guzziology. Invaluable, for all the reasons I mentioned and more. Even stilll, a seemingly straight-forward project like adding tubeless EV wheels to an 03 Stone required considerable, fabrication, fallback, and parts scrounging, even after exhaustive research. We get into something like this, and it becomes a headache. Spacers,washers, etc are used, fabbed, or discarded as needed to achieve the desired result. Dave R seems to be able to take the time to scribble notes, or has a photographic memory. Bless him. What you ask for becomes a "take it apart, size up what you have, figure out what it will take to get where you want to go" approach. If Pete, Greg, or Carl have other insights, I kneel at the teachers' feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Lets ignore the Hi-Cams because they are a completely different kettle of bananas but with any of the 2 valves it is possible to use any of the engines in any of the frames as long as you swap the timing cover if you're fitting say a roundfin from a Tonti to a spiney . There are lots of little things that prevent some things fitting into others, (As the actress said to the bishop!) A five speed box won't fit in a six speed spiney and visa-versa, you can't bung a six speed in a Tonti. The biggest issue though tends to revolve around the ignition/FI and general electricals If you want to stick your FI motor into a Tonti, revert to carbs etc. the FI motors don't have a distributor gear on the cam so you have to start farting about with adapting some sort of FI box or get Cliff to do you a Rec-Ignition that will work for the donk in question. As you can see, it's not really the *physicallity* that is different, it's all the extraneous other munt that will take the time, effort an fiddling, but if you really *Do* want to stick un-damped 35mm forks and a single sided, twin leading shoe front brake with a 100 section tyre on a 2.15 inch rim on the front of your tuned to buggery Scura I'm sure it's possible My *advice* generally would be that if you want to build a Frankenbike? Try and keep the parts all of *roughly* the same period, especially in terms of Tonti's. Virtually anything from the time of the 750S through to the last of the Mk V Lemans is fairly readily interchangeable. After that you're asking to be pushed over a low railing and be stuffed up the bum with a splintery broomhandle if you sart playing 'Mix and Match' Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 A V11 Sport engine can be shoe-horned into a Tonti Jackal without too much fuss. See Todd Eagan's write-up on his creation with linked photos here: http://www.guzzitech.com/V11S-Jackal-Todd_E.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 More're less unlimited, except by imagination. Ask what you desire to accomplish, and the list will tell you how. A Convert torque converter in a V11? Easier than you'd ever imagine . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 There are very few parts which will have that 'just slot in' style interchangability, most will require at least a little persuasion! For example, an 18" front wheel from a Mille GT will just slot in as a replacement for the 16" front of a Spada II. You can fit a six-speed V11 gearbox to an 1100 Sporti, as it will just slot in as a replacment gearbox, however you will require the V11 swinging arm, drive shaft, bevel box, torque arm and will require to reposition the torque arm mounting on the 1100 frame. Anything is possible with a little imagination and some mechanical thriftiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 More're less unlimited, except by imagination. Ask what you desire to accomplish, and the list will tell you how. A Convert torque converter in a V11? Easier than you'd ever imagine . . . Dare you! Double Dare you!!! Be easier in a Sport i Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterguzzi Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Dare you! Double Dare you!!! Be easier in a Sport i Pete Its not a v11 project i'm working on, i do use a six gear, and its not just bolt on but a Quota with a Centauro engine is not sensible but the thinking alone is already good fun...Imagine the driving? It was originaly my intention to build a standard Quota to have a daily ride next to my first project but somewhere down the line it went horrebly wrong and now i have to projects and still no ride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 More're less unlimited, except by imagination. Ask what you desire to accomplish, and the list will tell you how. A Convert torque converter in a V11? Easier than you'd ever imagine . . . O.K., how's this? How/can/what's needed - to fit a pair of heads from a 1984 T5? (squarehead) 850 on a V11 motor? I'm sure the valves are different sizes, so replacing seats is in order if wanting to upgrade the valves [but may be pointless if the idea is just a short-term swap to maintain bike useability while the stock heads are being sent to Mike Rich or something...] But anyway, back to the topic: can this work, & if so, easily or only after a huge migrainous headache? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 O.K., how's this? How/can/what's needed - to fit a pair of heads from a 1984 T5? (squarehead) 850 on a V11 motor? I'm sure the valves are different sizes, so replacing seats is in order if wanting to upgrade the valves [but may be pointless if the idea is just a short-term swap to maintain bike useability while the stock heads are being sent to Mike Rich or something...] But anyway, back to the topic: can this work, & if so, easily or only after a huge migrainous headache? Ahhh! No, not that simple. The T5 heads are smallvalvers, that isn't so much an issue, the problem is that the combustion chamber is much, much smaller and even if there aren't any valve to piston issues the compression ratio would be way too high. Then there is the fact that the T5 heads have piddly little 30mm ports on the inlet side and smaller, (Dunno by how much!) exhaust ports. Without a lot of opening up you'll end up with all sorts of horrible charge and exhaust reversion problems if you try to fit the unmodified heads to the V11 motor. BUT! If you have the T5 heads they are actually probably a better starting point for someone like Mike Rich because they are as good a blank castings! He can machine a custom combustion chamber and then the ports can be opened up to whatever he thinks is best. Bigger valves? Smaller valves? Even re-angle the little sods if he thinks it's worthwhile. The T5 heads would be almost like a blank canvas. I'm pretty sure Mike has loads of Guzzi experience so he'd know what the nominal CR of the stock V11 heads would be. With the T5 heads he could up the compression ratio PROPERLY by re-designing the combustion chamber rather than this piss-fart HC piston route which, as you know, I'm not a great fan of. Give the man a ring and ask his advice, I'm not a sh!t-hot tuner, just a bonehead mechanic. I'm sure he could give you the good oil. You could get them twin plugged at the same time and get a My15M from Cliff and start heading towards a REAL hot-rod V11 Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzijack Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 The biggest issue though tends to revolve around the ignition/FI and general electricals If you want to stick your FI motor into a Tonti, revert to carbs etc. the FI motors don't have a distributor gear on the cam so you have to start farting about with adapting some sort of FI box or get Cliff to do you a Rec-Ignition that will work for the donk in question. Pete Not as great a problem as it seems at first though This is exactly what I'm doing by dropping the V11 Sport mill into the LM V Tonti frame and running Mikuni Flatside carbs. Todd used the complete EFI system on his V11/Jackal hybrid so it wasn't such an issue for him. Dr John Project As the V11 engine has the phase sensor running off the cam that is all that is required to act as an ignition trigger. Cliff can provide an adaptation of his early MyECU box, (not Rec-Ignition - that's for the original dizzy and Dyna pickup equipped systems), that can be programmed in just the same way as My16M and the other FI boxes to give variable ignition features such as advance curves, spark duration etc. etc. It is a very elegant solution and offers considerable advantages over any other electronic ignition that would have run off of the dizzy system. Other items for a V11 to Tonti swap which need to be addressed are: Timing cover must be changed or altered - preferrably to an EFI non-spine one such as a Cali EV. The upper V11 engine mounts foul the Tonti frame and could be ground off if you are really careful. You could use an early cover but would need to blank off the rev counter drive somehow. Oil return path needs to be altered. On the Tonti there are two spigots on the rear frame cross member which return oil to the heads. The V11 Sport has one larger return to the rear of the sump. I've welded the R/H one up and opened up and welded a larger spigot onto the L/H one ready to take a banjo and single return to the sump. I understand that sizing may be critical so I'm endevouring to keep it all to the I/D of the V11 system. Five speed gearbox is a straight bolt up. Rev counter (and speedo/odometer) is taken care of by using a Stack electronic multifunction instrument or similar. Got delayed finishing the project before this summer - plus getting the Centauro didn't help - but I'm getting there Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 More're less unlimited, except by imagination. Ask what you desire to accomplish, and the list will tell you how. A Convert torque converter in a V11? Easier than you'd ever imagine . . . A V11S automatic sounds interesting. Is this a serious proposition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 I wasn't being serious. I was just pointing out that it's probably doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Cheek Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 I wasn't being serious. I was just pointing out that it's probably doable. Sounds like Greg is already planning the job. Probably have to start with a pump drive. Keep us updated Greg. Sounds like a fun project. What with me stuck here doing all of these Nippondenso and Hitachi alternator conversions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 Ahhh! No, not that simple. The T5 heads are smallvalvers, that isn't so much an issue, the problem is that the combustion chamber is much, much smaller and even if there aren't any valve to piston issues the compression ratio would be way too high. Then there is the fact that the T5 heads have piddly little 30mm ports on the inlet side and smaller, (Dunno by how much!) exhaust ports. Without a lot of opening up you'll end up with all sorts of horrible charge and exhaust reversion problems if you try to fit the unmodified heads to the V11 motor. I suspected as much. But the bolt pattern & oil galleries match, apparently, & that's pretty key for... BUT! If you have the T5 heads they are actually probably a better starting point for someone like Mike Rich because they are as good a blank castings! He can machine a custom combustion chamber and then the ports can be opened up to whatever he thinks is best. Bigger valves? Smaller valves? Even re-angle the little sods if he thinks it's worthwhile. The T5 heads would be almost like a blank canvas. (Mr. Burns emoticon, rubbing hands together) Exxxxcellent! I love it when a plan (or complete lack thereof) comes together! (w/ apologies to George Peppard...) I'm pretty sure Mike has loads of Guzzi experience so he'd know what the nominal CR of the stock V11 heads would be. With the T5 heads he could up the compression ratio PROPERLY by re-designing the combustion chamber rather than this piss-fart HC piston route which, as you know, I'm not a great fan of. "Piss-fart" HC pistons? Wonderful metaphors, as always, Pete! Yes, I'm not a huge fan of committing myself to pinging on CA's lackluster premium fuel, so that's all good... Give the man a ring and ask his advice, I'm not a sh!t-hot tuner, just a bonehead mechanic. I'm sure he could give you the good oil. You could get them twin plugged at the same time and get a My15M from Cliff and start heading towards a REAL hot-rod V11 Pete Not a fan of the twin-plugging; I consider it more of a band-aid than a real cure. I'll have to talk to M.R., as you suggest, but I'd rather go more toward a bathtub design chamber than the twin-plugs. And as much as I'd like to go w/ Cliff's My15M, I think the more cost-effective route will be to utilize the stock ECU w/ a Tune-Boy to doctor the map. We shall see; right now, this is all pie-in-the-sky as my gf recently melted down my truck motor so I'm going to have to dump a wheelbarrowful of the old cash-OLA into that before throwing money at a bike that already runs just fine! <_> Thanks for the insight! As always, V11LM comes thru! Ride on, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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