GuzziMoto Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Make it stop....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Say Skeeve. I presume you refer to Tony Foale? It's long been my understanding (just ancient legend, far from documented fact) that Foale actually owed the spine frame design concept to Swiss Engineer Fritz Egli, of Vincent-Egli fame. Wot say you? That's the one! I wouldn't be surprised if Egli beat him to it. I know Harley-Davidson did [by virtue of their ownership of Aermacchi, whose little 250 Sprint's spine frame predates Tony Foale's Guzzi racer frame by a decade at least...] Where did Aermacchi get their ideas? Maybe the Brit bike Ariel Leader which had a big sheetmetal box spine that everything hung from? Who knows... what we can determine at this date is that there's room for an even bigger box under a Spiney's tank, and since stiffness goes up at the 4th power of diameter, there's room for a stiffer, lighter spine frame than the one Dr. John bequeathed us. I suspect that the choices made were driven by lowest-cost supply considerations, vs. optimal strength/wt. design constraints. But that's all just conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil_P Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Hmmm, once you've ditched the standard airbox and fitted pods, it would become a fairly trivial task to use some sheet metal and a TIG welder to increase the size of the box. However, the points at which the increase in size become most beneficial, i.e., the point of mounting to the steering head and swinging arm pivot assembly remain somewhat limiting. I was rather hoping that the airbox removal would let me increase fuel tank size, but if someone could convince me that I could get meaningful increases in frame stiffness, then I might just go down that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 ...Where did Aermacchi get their ideas? Maybe the Brit bike Ariel Leader which had a big sheetmetal box spine that everything hung from? Who knows...... Well, as Mike Wilson mentioned, the HRD/Vincent had a spine frame way before then, originating in the 40's - designed by Phil Irving I think, an Aussie - in fact if you look at the Vincent it's real similar in many ways to the V11, box section spine, stressed engine... down to the spindly s/a...but I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone did one before then too. My old MZ250's have spine frames - the TS250 being a particularly nice curved tubular piece....they work well, but don't have to carry the mass of the V11. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 well, there have been more box type frames, but the details of tony foale's frame, are to strong back in the daytona frame, that they are related. And the story is that john witner has been at foale in that time and made some pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 well, there have been more box type frames, but the details of tony foale's frame, are to strong back in the daytona frame, that they are related. And the story is that john witner has been at foale in that time and made some pictures. Yes. Dr John frame is very similar to Foale's. Interesting that Foale used front downtubes, connecting st head to front lower engine mounts, steel fabricated s/a plates, & check the VERY solid looking spine mounting to gbox top! Guzzi themselves used tubular spine frames way before this, & others besides. Irving cites Panther, & differentiates between those using motor as stressed member (eg Panther) & those not (Ariell). KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Photos above & quote below are from Michael Moore's Eurospares website - I dunno how to do links...I think this has been discussed here before, but for anyone who hasn't heard..... "You may notice some similarities between Tony's frame design and that which later appeared on John Wittner's Guzzi race bike (and then developed into the current Guzzi Daytona/Sport chassis). Tony's frame uses a round spine tube instead of a rectangular tube, and has what I and others consider a superior sheet metal fabrication for the swing arm side plates instead of the bent aluminum plates that Wittner used. When I mentioned to Tony how similar the frames were he told me that Wittner, upon hearing about the Guzzi frame Tony was building, came to visit him with the alleged intention to order a couple of frames. Wittner took lots of pictures, asked lots of questions and went away and built his own frame. I know I've never seen any word of acknowledgement by Wittner for the, shall we say, "inspiration" for his "revolutionary" frame. I'm all for copying any good idea I can find, but I'm more than happy to credit the original source of the idea. I guess not everyone is willing to do that." KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 YIKES! If true, THAT at least appears to be not only unethical, but dishonest, and depending on details, possibly criminal. . . .So V-11's are -- at least conceptually -- built upon fraud and theft?! Somebody say it ain't so, PLEASE. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macguzzi Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 read this thread and fell asleep for three days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Wittner told me the first inspiration for it was an Aermacchi frame. Likely, it seems, the inspiration included Foale's frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macguzzi Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Have you seen Arthur Wheelers frames for his racing singles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Yes. Dr John frame is very similar to Foale's. Interesting that Foale used front downtubes, connecting st head to front lower engine mounts, steel fabricated s/a plates, & check the VERY solid looking spine mounting to gbox top! Well at that moment the front engine cover with the top mount didn't exist. But look at the swingarm, it's a 1:1 replica. >Have you seen Arthur Wheelers frames for his racing singles well please give a link to a picture what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 ...>Have you seen Arthur Wheelers frames for his racing singleswell please give a link to a picture what you mean. This from Phil Irving's "Motorcycle Engineering". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 I was just looking at an old partially disasembled IT 250 frame. It's a big spine with monoshock routed down the center of the huge spine tube. It's more alike Foale's frame than not. Same with its swingarm. I wonder who it inspired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 Here is the Foale frame. I'm grateful to Dr. John, DeTomaso and Maserati for pulling a smooth Italian job getting this thing built where we commoners and roustabouts could enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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