luhbo Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Who said you're making stuff like that up? Who? Me? Where? And who says being a dealer, official or not, or being a trained mechanic even, makes a person become the ultimate instance? A lot of people around here and outside the internet will agree that most Guzzis were ruined at official or inofficial dealers, or repaired at costs way over that what really had been necessary. Besides that, everybody could look on the Aprilia server and read those ominous official but nevertheless public documents. The point to be discussed here should be, what ridiculous interpretations of whatever vague informations you're selling here. Look, Greg for instance takes a shop manual - full stop: a translated shop manual - and points on the word "cast iron". Then he writes here in all publicity this was evidence enough for bad engineering at Guzzi/Aprilia/wherever. This is just ridiculous and doesn't really serve your proud profession's reputation, does it? Or he looks at two tappets and to him it seems as if the new one was slightly more convex as the old one. Damned right: another even more waterproof evidence for bad engineering Has any of you officials ever seen an official manufacturing drawing of one single engine part? Of an actual engine? Guzzi, Aprilia, HD? Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Field Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Who said you're making stuff like that up? Who? Me? Where? And who says being a dealer, official or not, or being a trained mechanic even, makes a person become the ultimate instance? A lot of people around here and outside the internet will agree that most Guzzis were ruined at official or inofficial dealers, or repaired at costs way over that what really had been necessary. Besides that, everybody could look on the Aprilia server and read those ominous official but nevertheless public documents. The point to be discussed here should be, what ridiculous interpretations of whatever vague informations you're selling here. Look, Greg for instance takes a shop manual - full stop: a translated shop manual - and points on the word "cast iron". Then he writes here in all publicity this was evidence enough for bad engineering at Guzzi/Aprilia/wherever. This is just ridiculous and doesn't really serve your proud profession's reputation, does it? Or he looks at two tappets and to him it seems as if the new one was slightly more convex as the old one. Damned right: another even more waterproof evidence for bad engineering Has any of you officials ever seen an official manufacturing drawing of one single engine part? Of an actual engine? Guzzi, Aprilia, HD? Hubert It was not in a shop manual. It was in the parts look-up and ordering systems, as I've said several times. I never said I was the ultimate anything. I offered an opinion and stated the facts behind it. The cast iron tappets failed. They replaced them with hardened steel tappets. I believe that is evidence enough that cast iron was the wrong material for the job. What is your evidence that they were not cast iron? You have an opinion about the problem, too. What are the facts behind your opinion? Are they ridiculous? Do they serve your professional reputation, whatever that is? Enlighten us. I'm guessing you are an engineer and thus "know" that engineers are never at fault. I have seen plenty of engineering and manufacturing drawings, mostly aerospace, but also plenty of Harley-Davidson ones, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 It was not in a shop manual. It was in the parts look-up and ordering systems, as I've said several times. I never said I was the ultimate anything. I offered an opinion and stated the facts behind it. The cast iron tappets failed. They replaced them with hardened steel tappets. I believe that is evidence enough that cast iron was the wrong material for the job. What is your evidence that they were not cast iron? You have an opinion about the problem, too. What are the facts behind your opinion? Are they ridiculous? Do they serve your professional reputation, whatever that is? Enlighten us. I'm guessing you are an engineer and thus "know" that engineers are never at fault. I have seen plenty of engineering and manufacturing drawings, mostly aerospace, but also plenty of Harley-Davidson ones, too. i like the way you kept aerospace and H/D separate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 ....What is your evidence that they were not cast iron?.... I have no evidence that they were not cast iron. Why should they not make it from cast iron? That's common practice. Tappets, camshafts, things like that. Cast iron is not always that what you usually get from cheap china toys. Nevertheless, in a shop or parts or "agent only" manual you will of course always find the same name: cast iron. Casting and heat treatment technologies nowadays can produce nearly everything you want. You should search for figures like 1.1120 or 1.6570 and compare them to 0.7060 / EN-JS 1060 or the like. Something like that is written on the drawings. When everything is ready, drawings released, tools started, plant planned, suppliers choosen, all these formalities done, then the "Bureau of Technical Documentation" (just call it what you like) starts its work, writing shop manuals, user manuals, parts catalogues and so on. Normaly they do this job only once and with as less effort as possible. They do all but care about cast iron or cast steel or steel or peanut butter. BTW, can you have a look in the Centauro/Daytona/4V manuals after these pieces of evidence? For blaming any engineer at Guzzi or Aprilia for eventually having done a bad job, and for doing this on an international and publical forum like this, at least in my opinion it needs a bit more skills and facts than just comparing two versions of an english part manual, or even being employed at the home of Guzziology or "knowing" Dr.John (who's nimbus might also be well discussed btw.) Hubert Edit: Because you've asked for it: I don't think engineers are above all faults. But for an engineer life normaly is not too difficult - as long as he remembers the magical question: "Are the parts all up to spec?" Another good one is:"You can show me that your assembly line is capable?" That's it. Something different is sitting in front of a blank CAD screen - but for this annoyance you're in most cases acceptably paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I didn't follow this thread for a few days, but now it looks pretty weird. Hubert who doesn't have a 4v guzzi, questions the statements of someone who has the parts in his hands and deals with it every day. Without any prooof. Isn't that weird? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Paul, do you think it's important to be a 4V owner to see whether a certain argumentation makes sense or not? Or whether it's fair or not? I always thought for this purpose it was just enough to have all his valves at the right place. I hope you can agree on that. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Paul, do you think it's important to be a 4V owner to see whether a certain argumentation makes sense or not? Or whether it's fair or not? I always thought for this purpose it was just enough to have all his valves at the right place. I hope you can agree on that. Hubert Hubert, you're arguing from theory a philosophical point. Greg is arguing from experience about empirical evidence. You're fighting a losing battle because nobody here much cares about the theory, we're all a bunch of Joe Fridays "Just the facts, ma'am..." guzzisti. Who knows what the responsible engineer called out for on the original drawings? We've got enough anecdotal evidence from before the problem even surfaced that there were issues w/ the QV engine's development, and now here we are, 2 years down the road & whoopsie, they're eating their tappets! Obviously, someone somewhere put their foot wrong, but none of it much matters now except that Piaggio is trying to conceal the fact that they ever screwed the pooch. Fortunately for us in the U.S., the fact that we always seem to get the new models about a year after everyone else means that the bugs are usually worked out [or at least known before we purchase! ] so we experience fewer allegiance-altering failures. It does NOT mean that we don't have anyone qualified to offer an opinion on the relevant matter(s). Ride on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 ...Greg is arguing from experience about empirical evidence. .... I wish he would. I tried to make clear that he hasn't any empirical evidence. He just sees that the tapets fail, or did fail. We all see this. The rest of all his "Sherlock Holmes" gaming is plain bullocks. Something goes wrong at Guzzi/Aprilia/Piaggio, that's beyond question. But to look at two versions of a whatever, public manual and search there for different identifiers and then, based on these findings, write or better fabulate about "I have found evidence of bad engineering" is more than stupid. Heck, you know, at Guzzi they certainly don't care about all those Greg Fields and C.ie out there. Nevertheless, I at least feel offended, maybe others as well. Ride on, too ! ...and off for China Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonio carroccio Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I didn't follow this thread for a few days, I do not follow this thread at all! After 7 pages Jaap usally use to close it. Sense or non sense... David is too softy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuzziMoto Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Guzzi made cams and tappets. They failed. They then designed NEW cams and tappets out of higher spec materials by their own admission and hopefully a better shape. Now hopefully they don't fail. If it was just a parts quality issue then there would not be new parts with new part numbers as there now are. If that is not a description of an engineering failure then nothing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris a Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Guzzi made cams and tappets. They failed. They then designed NEW cams and tappets out of higher spec materials by their own admission and hopefully a better shape. Now hopefully they don't fail. If it was just a parts quality issue then there would not be new parts with new part numbers as there now are.If that is not a description of an engineering failure then nothing is. Well moto unfortunatly that all depends if your taking the meds or not :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Minnaert Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 well: daytona, scura, stelvio, I have a lust for a bit different bikes :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 I do not follow this thread at all! After 7 pages Jaap usally use to close it. Sense or non sense... David is too softy! Oh, I forgot – I'm Moderator! But, it's educational. We could finish the thread at the end of this page and then start a new one, or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 well: daytona, scura, stelvio, I have a lust for a bit different bikes :-) The proper list is: Daytona, Scura, Griso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 Oh, I forgot – I'm Moderator! But, it's educational. We could finish the thread at the end of this page and then start a new one, or two. The 8V thread, Part 1, is 108 posts, so this is nearly there. Let's keep things neat and orderly and finish this on 108 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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