Dry Clutch Noise 2004 V11

[Guest ratchethack]

At the risk of inserting vulnerable fleshy parts directly into a cat fight, the early six-speed has a "cush drive" (not the cush drive in the bevel box), that increases drive line lash and certainly lends to the lash that would accentuate the "chatter." Problems with this unit were a component of the early gearbox recall. Mine has been less chatty since the change.

 

I know all parties are fully capable of answering for themselves, but in the spirit of having a "forum" I figure I'd chime in.

 

And, I suppose it's just my multi-cylinder background, but is "firing order" the correct term for the degrees of crank rotation between cylinder ignitions?

Good inputs, Docc. Sincerity always much appreciated.

 

My understanding of the internal "cush drive" in the 6-speeder, which has been described as "a stack of belleville washers" (which is exactly what it looks like) is that it has no function whatsoever as apparently intended. By my experience, having modified the hub cush drive, resulting in considerable added smoothness in driveline behavior, the "thing" the gearbox is as ineffective as a solid lump. I have inspected it on my own gearbox up close, alongside the experienced Guzzi authorized wrench who did the warranty parts replacement on it and re-stacked the box, and it appears to have no possible external sound generating capability whatsoever. It was not part of the recall replacement, and went back in exactly the same way it came out.

 

I'd welcome anyone's explanation of how any part of a V11 gearbox could contribute to clutch noise -- either in neutral, OR in gear with clutch engaged.

 

I have measured driveline lash through the gearbox, and it's 100% due to the angular rotation gaps between shift dogs and sliding muffs in the gearsets. Through the first gearset, it amounts to 4 cm wheel travel on the ground. As with the gearbox, there is no part of the driveline that can contribute to clutch noise!

 

I've avoided the term, "chatter" here, since "clutch chatter" is a common term for an entirely unrelated phenom. not applicable here.

 

I b'lieve you're right -- "firing order" may not be the most correct term here. If someone has a more correct term, I'd appreciate knowing about it. "Firing sequence" would no doubt be just as incorrect. "angular firing map?"

[docc]

There was no rotational "give" in the washer stack? Hmmm, I thought that is what it is supposed to do . . . but, I've only ever just studied the diagrams while wondering what could be so screwed up in my early gearbox (before the recall).

 

I see your point on "chatter" as I believe that occurs with the clutch fully engaged.

 

Seems like any part of the drive line that allows for some lash could accentuate the rattle.

 

And, I could see that a heavier flywheel would damp the rattling effects to a degree.

 

SO, yeah, it's "normal" kind of like my former girlfriend's polar disorder. Hey it was "normal" for her.

[Greg Field]

There was no rotational "give" in the washer stack? Hmmm, I thought that is what it is supposed to do . . . but, I've only ever just studied the diagrams while wondering what could be so screwed up in my early gearbox (before the recall).

 

I see your point on "chatter" as I believe that occurs with the clutch fully engaged.

 

Seems like any part of the drive line that allows for some lash could accentuate the rattle.

 

And, I could see that a heavier flywheel would damp the rattling effects to a degree.

 

SO, yeah, it's "normal" kind of like my former girlfriend's polar disorder. Hey it was "normal" for her.

 

 

Look, fellas: When you have the clutch lever pulled in, and the clutch is chattering, the cush-drive stack is outta the equation. It is. The shafts turn freely.

 

I could tell you what's going on, but it would just get me accused of not knowing what I'm talking about by guys who have owned one whole Guzzi in their entire lives, like Hatchetwhacker.

 

If anyone's sincerely interested in knowing beyond the regurgitated blather that passes for knowledge on V11 LM.com, PM me.

[Guest ratchethack]

Look, fellas: When you have the clutch lever pulled in, and the clutch is chattering, the cush-drive stack is outta the equation. It is. The shafts turn freely.

Uh-huh. And yet:

 

. . .the six-speed trans apparently contributes to the noise. . .

 

No explanation for this^.

 

And no answers to any of my simple Q's (again). . .

 

The liquor logic continues. . .

[Greg Field]

Uh-huh. And yet:

 

 

 

No explanation for this^.

 

And no answers to any of my simple Q's (again). . .

 

The liquor logic continues. . .

 

 

Well, until I pointed out the obvious, that it's flywheel weight and not firing order and that the six-speed contributes, you had not considered either thing. I'll leave the Square Wheels Riders ™ to figure out the rest on their own.

[Admin Jaap]

For God's sake, a V11 clutch rattles. Period. Not every technical topic needs to end in a discussion.

 

@RH Can't you take something for granted once in a while? Boy, I wouldn't be surprised that you wouldn't call a table a table if you didn't have credible sources. Lighten up!

[raz]

This is the percussion section of the orchestra. It's the signature of a single pin crank, 90-degree V-twin motor with a 270-430 degree firing order.

My engine use the more sensible 270-450 which tend to be much smoother

[Guest ratchethack]

My engine use the more sensible 270-450 which tend to be much smoother

Good catch, Raz.

[Bogwopit]

Being particularly thick I've tried to understand the majority of the above posts re. clutch noise and have to confess that I,am still non the wiser.I,am pretty new to the forum and still don't know if some people are being serious or merely taking the piss out of one another.Probably a little from column A and a little from column B.

Just to give my non technical findings, my '03 LeMan is quite noisy,my '01 Rosso Mandello is very noisy,my '07 1500mile California Vintage is slightly noisy and my '88 136000 mile BMW R100RT is silent.I don't get my new Griso 8v until tomorrow so I can't comment on it.As far as I'am concerned the Guzzi's may be noisy but that's what makes them feel alive.The BM's good but it's just a bike.

 

For all you techie types out there-if i was to make a heavier thicker flywheel would this reduce the clutch noise and make the motor smoother? If so give me some dimensions and I'll make a new flywheel and try it out.

 

greetings from planet Earth,

 

Andy Roo.

[gstallons]

Probably the only repair is; to put a spring every 90 or 120 degrees around the middle of the seperator plate and splined hub . this would keep it from "flopping" around between the friction discs to stop the bittersweet symphony you hear. When this repair fell out you would have more troubles.

[Greg Field]

Being particularly thick I've tried to understand the majority of the above posts re. clutch noise and have to confess that I,am still non the wiser.I,am pretty new to the forum and still don't know if some people are being serious or merely taking the piss out of one another.Probably a little from column A and a little from column B.

Just to give my non technical findings, my '03 LeMan is quite noisy,my '01 Rosso Mandello is very noisy,my '07 1500mile California Vintage is slightly noisy and my '88 136000 mile BMW R100RT is silent.I don't get my new Griso 8v until tomorrow so I can't comment on it.As far as I'am concerned the Guzzi's may be noisy but that's what makes them feel alive.The BM's good but it's just a bike.

 

For all you techie types out there-if i was to make a heavier thicker flywheel would this reduce the clutch noise and make the motor smoother? If so give me some dimensions and I'll make a new flywheel and try it out.

 

greetings from planet Earth,

 

Andy Roo.

 

 

No need to make one. Put an older, heavier flywheel in, and the noise will magically disappear. It won't change your firing order, though, so any reduction in noise is purely imaginary.

[pete roper]

Being particularly thick I've tried to understand the majority of the above posts re. clutch noise and have to confess that I,am still non the wiser.I,am pretty new to the forum and still don't know if some people are being serious or merely taking the piss out of one another.Probably a little from column A and a little from column B.

Just to give my non technical findings, my '03 LeMan is quite noisy,my '01 Rosso Mandello is very noisy,my '07 1500mile California Vintage is slightly noisy and my '88 136000 mile BMW R100RT is silent.I don't get my new Griso 8v until tomorrow so I can't comment on it.As far as I'am concerned the Guzzi's may be noisy but that's what makes them feel alive.The BM's good but it's just a bike.

 

For all you techie types out there-if i was to make a heavier thicker flywheel would this reduce the clutch noise and make the motor smoother? If so give me some dimensions and I'll make a new flywheel and try it out.

 

greetings from planet Earth,

 

Andy Roo.

 

8V uses a new clutch/flywheel and it is virtually silent. Yes, people take the piss. Some people are also annoying and can take pedantry to virtually unheard of levels of dullness.

 

8V is enormous fun IF set up properly. who did you buy it off? do they have a good rep?

 

Pete

[Dan M]

 

And, I suppose it's just my multi-cylinder background, but is "firing order" the correct term for the degrees of crank rotation between cylinder ignitions?

 

The term I see used most often for describing the timing of events in relationship to crankshaft rotation is "phasing".

[Bogwopit]

No need to make one. Put an older, heavier flywheel in, and the noise will magically disappear. It won't change your firing order, though, so any reduction in noise is purely imaginary.

Any suggestions as to which model flywheel would fit o.k.?

 

Andy Roo.

[Bogwopit]

8V uses a new clutch/flywheel and it is virtually silent. Yes, people take the piss. Some people are also annoying and can take pedantry to virtually unheard of levels of dullness.

 

8V is enormous fun IF set up properly. who did you buy it off? do they have a good rep?

 

Pete

My nearest M.G. dealer,SPEEDAWAY M/CYCLES,Black Heath.Birmingham.

Don't know what the general reputation is like but as my closest dealer I spend a lot of time there and get all my parts from them.They are v.friendly and a good laugh as well.

 

Andy Roo.