Is my Electrosport Stator Defective?

[Sam P]

Have been hanging out here since February - trying to learn stuff - when I bought a nice low mileage 2001 V11S. Rode 6K fun miles between then and August, with no drama, and then the charging system started acting up: first overcharging and destroying a new Odyssey battery, and now, the charging light comes on and stays on when the engine hits 4K rpm. I've been through the ten or so threads on here related to charging, and have learned quite a bit. This is forum is an amazing source of Guzzi knolwedge!

So I bought and have installed a new Voltage Regulator (ESR515) and Stator (ESG814) from Electrosport. Still, the charge light comes on at 4K rpm.  

Put my voltmeter on AC and on the two yellow wires coming from the stator: 19v at idle/1K rpm, and 60v when revved to 3K rpm. 

My Workshop Manual says these AC volts should be 15v at 1K and 40v at 3K rpm.

Contacted Electrosport this morning and the tech says the high voltage output from their stator is normal, and that the stator is not defective.

Is the information from the tech good? If so, why does it contradict what's in the shop manual? Any thoughts or guidance appreciated!

[docc]

You've made great progress already! Others will have to address the voltage variance [ @Kiwi_Roy  . . . ? ]

What is the status and condition of your 30 amp "charging" fuse, @Sam P?

[Sam P]

That 30A fuse hadn't tripped, but the heat shrink looked a little bubbly, so I replaced it. Still the light comes on at 4K rpm. This is giving me fits. I think I need to check the DC voltage coming from the Regulator - haven't done that yet....

Other things that I've done, per suggestions on here:

-Grounded the Voltage Regulator directly to the timing chest. Filed and put Deoxit on the connection points on engine and Reg.

-Replaced all the relays with the Picker PC782-1C-12S-R-X units.  Hit all the female plugs with Deoxit. 

-Inspected the back of the relay harness for any loose or broken wires.

-LED headlight is working properly

 

[docc]

That ticks a lot of boxes!  

Perhaps a close inspection of the ring terminals at the battery to be certain none got left off. As silly as that sounds, it has happened to a lot of us.

[audiomick]

5 hours ago, Sam P said:

.... first overcharging ...

...the charging light comes on and stays on when the engine hits 4K rpm. 

I see two issues there. The first one, overcharging, is generally the regulator, and you have addressed that according to what you wrote.

The second one sounds like an issue I had with my V35 Imola. I only noticed it when I rode in the dark for the first time in a while, and what I noticed was that the charge warning light was coming on a bit with increasing revs.

I don't know for sure that this transfers to the alternator on the V11, but I reckon it probably does. The alternator in the V35 was a Bosch.

My research turned up the following causes:

The brushes are worn.

The surface that the brushes contact with on the rotor is out of round, causing the brushes to float at higher revs

The springs that hold the brushes in contact have gotten weak, allowing the brushes to float at higher revs.

Generally a combination of all of the above, particular the second and third mentioned.

As I wrote, I don't know for sure that that will help, but I hope it does. 

 

PS: regarding this

Quote

Is the information from the [Electrosport] tech good? If so, why does it contradict what's in the shop manual? Any thoughts or guidance appreciated!

I would assume that the tech knows his company's products, and don't assume that such a tech would automatically bullshit a customer. It's an aftermarket part, and most likely they have built a "high performance" stator, i.e. one that delivers a bit more than the standard part. The alternator in my V35 Imola is just such a beast, bought to solve the above mentioned problem. Not because it was the only, or cheapest, solution. I just wanted to have that one. It, in combination with the regulator from the supplier (Silent Hektik) starts charging at lower revs and delivers more Watts than the standard Bosch in the V35.

Edited September 13 by audiomick

[gstallons]

I will have to look back through my stash and see about the V output at different RPMs. The MG manual (I think) gives these V output at specific RPMs.

You say the light comes on at 4k RPM? Does the light go off when the RPMs drop?  

 

[audiomick]

 

13 minutes ago, gstallons said:

The MG manual (I think) gives these V output at specific RPMs.

@Sam P wrote

Quote

My Workshop Manual says these AC volts should be 15v at 1K and 40v at 3K rpm.

which seems to confirm that the manual states specific r.p.m values for the voltages

and before that

6 hours ago, Sam P said:

the charge light comes on at 4K rpm.  

Put my voltmeter on AC and on the two yellow wires coming from the stator: 19v at idle/1K rpm, and 60v when revved to 3K rpm. 

 

From Sam's post, I assume the light does go back off when the revs drop, but confirmation would be good.

It would also be interesting to know if the 60V at 3,000 rpm drops off when the revs go up to 4,000 and higher. 

Edited September 13 by audiomick

[Pressureangle]

It's late and I'm speaking out of turn because I have neither my VR nor a schematic at hand to review. 
The voltage regulator has to know, by some circuit, how much voltage it 'needs' to put out. If the 'sensor' circuit has high resistance, that will tell the VR that the 'system' voltage is low and it needs to output more, when in fact the battery is charged but the regulator can't see it. I'm going through a well-worn 2000 V11 right now, and one thing that seems consistent is the ignition switches festering internally. Poor connections cause high resistance and low voltages across the board. The switches are not difficult to disassemble and clean. 
First things first, get a multimeter and a note pad and record what your static, or key-off battery voltage is; what your idle battery voltage is; what your 3000 RPM battery voltage is; and whether, and by how much, the battery voltage changes when the charge lamp comes on. 

[audiomick]

2 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

...
The voltage regulator has to know, by some circuit, how much voltage it 'needs' to put out. ...

Absolutely correct, but...

If there were a problem there, I would expect the charging system to deliver false values across the board. I've had that, due to bad regulators, with a couple of bikes. They overcharged, and cooked the batteries.

The business with "over 4,000 revs" leads me to believe that it is not the regulator (apparently was bad = cooked brand new battery, but has been replaced), but rather that the alternator is, for whatever reason, failing to deliver at higher engine revolutions.

[Pressureangle]

1 minute ago, audiomick said:

Absolutely correct, but...

If there were a problem there, I would expect the charging system to deliver false values across the board. I've had that, due to bad regulators, with a couple of bikes. They overcharged, and cooked the batteries.

The business with "over 4,000 revs" leads me to believe that it is not the regulator (apparently was bad = cooked brand new battery, but has been replaced), but rather that the alternator is, for whatever reason, failing to deliver at higher engine revolutions.

I don't know, and don't recall any discussion or discovery of what conditions set the 'charge' lamp other than insufficiency. There may be some sort of current-limiting self-protection routine? I can't find a logical way that a permanent magnet generator can stop producing at higher RPM, then return to producing at low RPM. It is perfectly possible, though, that the charge wires from the generator to the VR get very hot at high RPM and the resistance cuts throughput. <shrug> only the DMM knows for sure. 

[gstallons]

I found  my (Kiwi_Roy's) notes on this and it did not give values at 3 or 4 different RPMs. They must be in the service manual. I know these V output readings were checked w/the wires disconnected from the two wires coming out of the engine front cover. This is a single phase rotor so it has two wires only to worry with. I think the max V output was a crazy # like 80v ? 

 You do not want to rule out a bad battery , poor connection(s) or bad ground from the regulator to the engine or frame.

 This seems unusual but don't rule out audiomick's advice about alt. brush bounce. It happens more than you think. I will get up early and try to find the alt. output v. at different RPMs. The alt light comes on when there is a difference in V on the two sides of the wires of the bulb. If it is overcharging or undercharging .

Edited September 13 by gstallons
more info

[audiomick]

17 minutes ago, gstallons said:

 I think the max V output was a crazy # like 80v ? 

Yes. I just now did some looking, and stumbled across a post in a German forum from someone I know personally who knows what he is talking about. According to him, 80V is to be expected at (I think, I've closed the tab...) about 6,000 r.p.m. . 80V for sure, revs, lots at least. 

Edited September 13 by audiomick

[docc]

Let's specify the alternator output voltage is AC. Not sure it makes any difference to the discussion, but the voltmeter must be set AC for the alternator output and DC for the Regulator/Rectifier output.

Also, isn't the V11 alternator some kind of induction device (no brushes) with the crank spinning coils of wire within a permanent magnet?

[audiomick]

7 minutes ago, docc said:

 isn't the V11 alternator some kind of induction device (no brushes) with the crank spinning coils of wire within a permanent magnet? 

As I indicated further up, I don't know. If there are no brushes, my thoughts further up don't count. Even so, it still looks, to me, like the alternator is failing at higher revs. It might even be something like a dodgy connection that succumbs to the vibrations at higher revs. I had that once with a spark plug connector that wasn't seated properly. 

Edited September 13 by audiomick

[Lucky Phil]

47 minutes ago, docc said:

Let's specify the alternator output voltage is AC. Not sure it makes any difference to the discussion, but the voltmeter must be set AC for the alternator output and DC for the Regulator/Rectifier output.

Also, isn't the V11 alternator some kind of induction device (no brushes) with the crank spinning coils of wire within a permanent magnet?

It is so the brush issue is not a factor. This t/shooting is being done the wrong way around. Whats needed is the reg output to the battery and if thats bad then worry about the alternator output. Personally I'd ditch the LED headlight and go back to the original headlight and see what happens first just to get a base line. The reg senses voltage via the headlight supply so there is an effect there. What reg did you install? the hard wired one to the battery or the original style that senses from the headlight circuit? If the latter that connection might be a place worth looking at as well. The alt light comes on when the alternator voltage drops below battery voltage so at elevated rpm the battery is doing all the work. Sounds like a dud reg to me.

Phil 

Edited September 13 by Lucky Phil