belfastguzzi Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Getting the LMIII (1982 850) out and about. Unfortunately oil is getting out and about too. The bike has airbox removed and K&N pods fitted. A breather/drain tube runs from the frame down under the engine by the gearchange lever. I have noticed this dripping goo. Now that I've got new tyres on the bike and have been out for a few rides, I saw today that oil is spreading itself over the swing arm, rear-brake, tyre etc. When I saw it this afternoon, I did a roadside clean-up of brake disc & pads, with petrol. Had a look to see if there was anything different could be done with breather system. There is a small vertical tube coming from the crankcase beside (to left) the main breather. What is this for? It was capped off. I wondered if the drain tube should maybe be connected to this, to recirculate the oil (and water) coming from the frame, so I removed the cap and put the hose on to see what would happen. On the way home I then thought that probably the hose would normally connect to the airbox, not the crankcase – and possibly another hose would run from the small crankcase pipe to the airbox also. I realised that what I had done was likely to mean that there was now no 'breather' route with any opening to atmosphere and that pressure was going to force oil out somewhere else. Sure enough, when I got home, the other side of the bike was plastered in oil and it had still found its way onto the back tyre, though the brake was ok as it was on the other side. What have people who have fitted K&Ns to their V.11 done with the breather hose that normally connects to the airbox? Can anybody with experience of the older Le Mans breather system tell me what solutions there are? Should this oil from the breather system not be getting fed back into the sump rather than blown out to atmosphere/road/tyre/brake? If there isn't a way of recirculating it, do I need to make a box or bottle to collect the lost oil? What is that small pipe beside the main breather outlet? Should it have a hose to connect it to anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Barrett Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Keith has a rather tastefully colour matched old oil bottle as a catch tank. perhaps he can fill the exact details. I've blown the picture up a bit to get some detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 Keith has a rather tastefully colour matched old oil bottle as a catch tank. perhaps he can fill the exact details. I've blown the picture up a bit to get some detail 87042[/snapback] Thanks Martin I can't see it, as I can't enlarge the thumbnail. Seems like this oil loss is 'just what happens' then? If you get a chance to upload the pic to another server, you could post the link or show the enlarged pic via the link. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Barrett Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Hope thats better. I forgot the non IE users were experiancing problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchbob Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Seems like this oil loss is 'just what happens' then? 87050[/snapback] I don't think it should happen to that extent: too much oil in the sump might account for it, but I assume you've not done that. Are the bores worn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Arrrrgh! Gurgle, splutter, froth!!!!! No wonder it's pumping out oil! If that small pipe next to the big breather vent is blocked off there is no way for the condensate to return to the engine so you frame is full of oil!!!!! The way the system works on the Mk III is you have the big pipe similar to the one on your V11 that goes up to the frame near the steering head. This is the main vent hose from the crank case and takes the air/gas and oil vapor that is expelled from the motor up to the top tube which acts as a condensor. The condensate then runs down the top tube of the frame and if you take the tank off you'll see that on the left hand side of the cross-pipe that the main frame member is welded to there is another small pipe which I would guess on your frame has also been blocked off. This small pipe should have a hose on it connecting it to the blanked off pipe coming out of the bell housing next to the large vent pipe and the condensate should run down the frame, back through this hose into the small pipe which snakes around inside the bell housing before returning the oil condensate to the sump through a banjo fitting and pipe bolt. The breather to atmosphere, the hose that comes off the frame top-tube closest to the steering head, was originally run to the airbox so that vented gas was re-breathed through the motor. There was also a vent from the gearbox breather connected to the same fitting in the bottom of the air box. Check that the previous owner hasn't, in the interest of 'Tidying things up' connected the main vent to the gearbox breather! Believe me, I've seen this more than once! Of course if the system is set up this way the whole engine and gearbox pressurise like buggery and the bike will pop every seal it posseses in about 3 kilometers . You have to have some way for the condensate to get back to the engine. If for some reason the frame doesn't have that pipe on the cross pipe it must of had it's frame swapped at some time for an earlier one but if it's a *genuine* Mk III I'd guess that the return hose has simply been removed by a previous owner who didn't know what it was for. Before you run the bike again take off the big breather hose as well, it will be FULL of oil unless the ball valve in the vent pipe from the bell housing is faulty and it will dump a pint of oil and water all over you and your engine when you pull it off! The frame will also have a few pints in it and when you un-block the return pipe that will drain out too. Once you've sorted the breather system the problem should go way, just be aware it's going to be messy. It shouldn't of done any harm. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 Arrrrgh! Gurgle, splutter, froth!!!!! No wonder it's pumping out oil! If that small pipe next to the big breather vent is blocked off there is no way for the condensate to return to the engine so you frame is full of oil!!!!! The way the system works on the Mk III is you have the big pipe similar to the one on your V11 that goes up to the frame near the steering head. This is the main vent hose from the crank case and takes the air/gas and oil vapor that is expelled from the motor up to the top tube which acts as a condensor.... if you take the tank off you'll see that on the left hand side of the cross-pipe that the main frame member is welded to there is another small pipe which I would guess on your frame has also been blocked off. This small pipe should have a hose on it connecting it to the blanked off pipe coming out of the bell housing next to the large vent pipe.... 87060[/snapback] Phew! That's a help. So it is a breather return? I haven't inspected this with the tank off and clearly need to do so. As far as I could tell, by feel, the small diameter hose that I refered to came out from a cross-pipe outlet. So it looks like I did the right thing by connecting it to the small pipe. I guess that the frame isn't full of oil – because although the return inlet pipe wasn't blocked off, the cross-piece hose wasn't connected to it and wasn't blocked and so blew the oil out...? I'll have to check the whole thing to see what else has been done and why there is still oil being released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 IIRC Oil blow out was a bit of an issue with Tontis if they were filled / overfilled in any case. The trendy thing used to be go with a deeper sump or....... Most folk just put less oil in and left them shy of full. Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete roper Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 I'll have to check the whole thing to see what else has been done and why there is still oil being released. 87073[/snapback] It shouldn't be a big deal. Take the tank off and check where the hoses go. Big hose, (Like V11.) From breather on top of bell housing with ball valve in to pipe second from steering head on frame top tube. Hose from pipe closest to steering head, (Approx 10mm ID) is breather to atmosphere. If the rings and guides are good this should just be able to be run down and out between the starter motor and gearbox but if you have any doubts run it to a catch bottle by the battery. Check that the pipe poking out of the LH side of the cross-frame pipe hasn't been blocked by rusty crud or silastic or something equally awful by stuffing a screwdriver in it and give it a wiggle. If you have compressed air give it a blast with that but make sure the breather to atmospher up by the steering head is routed away from anything you don't want splattered with mayonaise, rusty water, cealocanths, false teeth etc. that will be lurking in the frame. You can if you want, (and this is quite a good idea if the breather system is of dubious connection.) block the big breather pipe at the frame and then back-flush the frame with Kero a few times to get rid of the bleargh. After you know it's all ridgey-didge you connect the pipe from the crosspiece on the frame to the small pipe poking out of the bell housing so the condensate can return to the sump. If the hose from that small pipe was just running down to below the engine/gearbox then all the condensate would of been dribbling out of it, hence the spray on the back of the bike. As Ballancraine sez, Tontis, especially those without sump extensions, do have a habit of over-taxing their breathers. On pre MkIII models that didn't have the sump extension ex-factory people also make the mistake of thinking that the extension is there to allow the addition of more oil when in fact it is to move the oil away from the crank to reduce windage and lower the crankcase pressurisation differential. With most Tonti's you'll find they like to find their own level. If you fill the sump to the 'Full' mark and then ride it will probably pump oil out fairly quickly up to a certain point, (Usually somewhere roughly half way between the 'Full' and 'Add' marks of the stick.) and then at that point the expulsion and/or use of oil will stop and it will use very little more until the next change. The simple thing to do is run it until that point and then mark the stick *about there* and use that as the full mark. If you continue to have problems with oil being expelled it indicates ou probably have a problem with rings and/or guides. If you service them and it still expells oil it means you're a yob and a thrasher . At that point it's probably a good time to think about a windage plate Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldini Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 ....If you service them and it still expells oil it means you're a yob and a thrasher... They'll blow oil if revved hard for a distance. I once stopped in a cloud of steam after a long haul trying to hang on to a zx9 up the mountain on IOM, oil all over bike & me, & looked down expecting to see a rod sticking thru the cases - nothing - just let it sit for a while & plodded off on our way good as new. That's what turned me to the bottle.... Is it a LM111 frame? Has it got the sump extension plate? God bless Mr Roper KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike wilson Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Thanks MartinI can't see it, as I can't enlarge the thumbnail. Seems like this oil loss is 'just what happens' then? If you get a chance to upload the pic to another server, you could post the link or show the enlarged pic via the link. Cheers 87050[/snapback] As a workaround for the picture problem, open it and let the code load completely, then save it as "picture.jpg" and close the page. You should be able to open the file then either in your browser or any image viewing software like ACDsee. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 Take the tank off and check where the hoses go.Big hose, (Like V11.) From breather on top of bell housing with ball valve in to pipe second from steering head on frame top tube. Hose from pipe closest to steering head, (Approx 10mm ID) is breather to atmosphere. If the rings and guides are good this should just be able to be run down and out between the starter motor and gearbox but if you have any doubts run it to a catch bottle by the battery. 87078[/snapback] OK, I've just taken the tank off. 'Course, soon as I did that, the rain came on so I'm back in the house again. The main breather is connected as normal. The pipe closest to steering head has been capped though. So both that and the small return pipe on the crankcase were blocked off. Check that the pipe poking out of the LH side of the cross-frame pipe hasn't been blocked by rusty crud or silastic or something equally awful by stuffing a screwdriver in it and give it a wiggle....If the hose from that small pipe was just running down to below the engine/gearbox then all the condensate would of been dribbling out of it, hence the spray on the back of the bike. 87078[/snapback] The only two vent pipes then, were the main breather to frame and a hose from that cross-frame pipe, which was extended down by the gear lever area and was resposible for blowing oil over the rear end. He nearly might as well have just routed the big breather straight to atmosphere and saved any water from gathering in the frame! .... stuffing a screwdriver in it and give it a wiggle. If you have compressed air give it a blast with that but make sure the breather to atmospher up by the steering head is routed away from anything you don't want splattered with mayonaise, rusty water, cealocanths, false teeth etc. that will be lurking in the frame. 87078[/snapback] I think there's an octopus in there – it doesn't want to come out. After you know it's all ridgey-didge you connect the pipe from the crosspiece on the frame to the small pipe poking out of the bell housing so the condensate can return to the sump. 87078[/snapback] When the rain stops (tomorrow?) I'll connect it up as it should be. I suppose it would be interesting to put a collector bottle on the vent from the top of the frame tube, just to see what comes out there. Does it really work that the oil mostly runs back down into the case and the water vapour vents up and out from the top tube, or in reality is it the same mixture of stuff that goes both ways? I took one of the rocker covers off, expecting to see emulsion in there. There wasn't any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballacraine Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Does it really work that the oil mostly runs back down into the case and the water vapour vents up and out from the top tube, or in reality is it the same mixture of stuff that goes both ways? I took one of the rocker covers off, expecting to see emulsion in there. There wasn't any. 87789[/snapback] Yes mostly. It depends on how you use it...Lots of short runs lead to more water / oil emulsion build up everywhere.....Not good! I always try to go on long runs and 'excercise' the motor when it is fully warmed up......I have never had emulsion problems on any bike since I got into this habit. The last bit is good news! Nige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nogbad Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 When the rain stops (tomorrow?) 87789[/snapback] Does it ever stop there? Of course, tomorrow never comes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belfastguzzi Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 Does it ever stop there? Of course, tomorrow never comes..... 87839[/snapback] ...yes it does: it's tomorrow now and that wet stuff is headed your way Today's gonna be a dry May Day here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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