Kiwi_Roy
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Posts posted by Kiwi_Roy
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On 4/2/2020 at 9:31 PM, Lucky Phil said:
So Roy if you use a 3 wire flasher you wont need to do any wiring mods?
Ciao
We are talking VII? no, just the ground for the flasher.
Some of the more modern Guzzis don't have a flasher at all instead they have 4 dedicated outputs from the dash.
I helped a guy with a Griso, his LEDs were still glowing even with the key out and he could measure 8 Volts across the lamp. I have a Griso so I checked into it, I don't have LED lamps but I stuck a couple in to try.
It turns out that the dash checks for a burnt out lamp, it tries to pull the output toward +12V to the tune of 40 microamps even when the ignition is off.
If the key is turned On and the output goes higher than 3.2 Volts which it will do if a lamp is burnt out the dash displays a picture of a lamp and the red triangle is illuminated. Some LEDs have a high forward bias that may cause the alarm, the Griso owner measured 8 Volts, this probably has several elements in series, The LEDs I have had 19 elements in parallel and the forward bias was only 1.97 Volts and operated without a problem.
Simply adding a 1K 1/4 Watt resistor across the lamp is enough to keep the Voltage down when not operating, the resistor should ideally be at the end of line across the lamp. Soldered across the lamp holder is probably the best you can do.
The V7 range have a different arrangement based on measuring the lamp current, i'm guessing you need a shunt resistor to run LEDs in this bike.
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Perhaps just mount a quick connect in the bottom of the tank, there's really no need to shut the fuel off on a FI bike.
Do you have an in tank or outside fuel pump?
Personally I never had a problem with the Electric Petcock.
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No resistors needed but you will need a 3 wire flasher
The 2 wire flashers used with incandescent lamps are current actuated they work in series with the high lamp current.
The 3 wire LED flashers are more of a Voltage device, they use the Voltage to chassis to activate the relay.
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I think you will need to set it for i pulse per 2 revolutions, I assume you will be picking up the signal from just one coil.The last setting.
If you are taking pulses from the ECU its anyones guess.
BTW I think a common speedo cabe ratio is 1000 turns per mile
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I'm trying to grasp the concept of a speedometer having a set frequency, does not compute.
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Heres a couple of pictures of a solenoid, a Bosch in this case but the Valeo or the Chinese one is similar. Note how the long tail has 2 wires
Someone came along and interrupted me in the middle of counting turns, I believe both coils were probably 300 turns. The heavy gauge coil is on the bottom so it's thicker and heavier for the same number of turns. Anyone care to check my counting?
I only have a British Standard Wire Gauge from my days as an apprentice.
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Heres a diagram I did years ago when I had a 2001 VII Sport
The red dashed line shows how a 2001 VII Sport was wired from the battery, through a fuse then direct to the 30 terminal of the start relay. that bike never suffered from Startus Interruptus even when the ignition switch was so bad it started dropping out the ECU. Only 100 milliamps ran through the switch.
You can check this on Carl Allison"s 1999 VII Sport
But then along came your bike in 2004 and for some reason the factory ran the wire up to the Ignition switch and back, big mistake, look at those wimpy wires going from the connector up at the front of the tank to and from the switch this was enough to seriously restrict the current.
Check this on Carl's 2004 VII Sport Catalytic
The Timing Diagram shows the magnitude of the current through various parts of the starter, the narrow pulse at the left is only 15 - 100 milliseconds wide, the more current you can cram into the coil the better.
Actually I have a theory - The factory don't know how much current the solenoids draw. If you take your trusty multimeter and place it in series with the solenoid it will tell you around 10 Amps because the high current pulse is so quick the meter is unable to capture it. So of course Luigi allows a little bit of a margin and uses a 15 Amp fuse. This is confirmed by all the Guzzi schematics that only show one coil in the solenoid. Obviously the factory are puzzled by this, if you look at a modern diagram they don't even show one coil but something like a black hole.
If you take the time to measure the solenoid coil you will find measuring from the spade connector to chassis it measures less than 1/4 Ohm. One coil measures just one 1 Ohm to chassis but the other coil in series with the motor is only a fraction of that.
All Guzzi starters are similar, doesn't matter what brand you pick. The second coil that guzzi chose to ignore is over 4 x as strong magnetically as the one they provide for.
You don't have to re-wire the bike but you will need to keep the ignition switch in top shape.
Later model Guzzi's like a Norge also run through the ignition switch but they have the switch mounted to the chassis so the wires are more robust.
The Breva is another bike that seems to suffer, the fix there is just to provide a direct feed bypassing the ignition switch, It doesn't change the interlock because the relay coil feed is still switched. Relaying signals from one circuit to another is what relays are good at.
Moto Guzzi - making Electricians out of riders since 1921
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It could be your solenoid was jamming Chuck, in that case the fuse would have to take 40 Amps on a sustained basis.
I hope you upgraded the fuse to a 20 Amp one
If the solenoid is unable to slide the gear into mesh and close the main contact a 15 Amp fuse will blow in less than 1 second
You can check this out for yourself by taking the large cable off the solenoid, this simulates the main contact not closing, even though the solenoid pulls into place the second high current coil stays in circuit.
Note: its not just Valeo starters this applies to, The old Bosch, and the new Chinese starters currently used by the factory also have two coils Im willing to bet the ones sold on the internet also have the same 2 coil arrangement.
I do wish Guzzi would show this on their diagrams.
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The most common problem with Guzzi starters is lack of current for the solenoid, it would like to draw between 40 and 50 Amps.To get this current you need almost zero resistance.
The way to test your starter is to take a wire from the solenoid and touch it on the battery, if it responds to that then its another fault. A word of warning, make certain that the bike is in neutral or on the centre stand so it doesn't launch itself.
See Stewgnu's post, thats typical of too much resistance the solenoid sits there drawing not quite enough to pull in 20+ Amps
The easy way to get around this is to provide a direct feed to the starter relay, this will send up to 40 Amps to the solenoid guaranteeing it will pull in.
Cleaning the ignition switch and sprucing up the relay socket may get you off the hook for a while.
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I seem to recall the speedo needle on my Vll in the vicinity of 240 kph, is that even possible or am I dreaming?
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On 12/18/2019 at 1:30 PM, Lucky Phil said:
In the very early days of the Ducati 851 used to connect the intake manifold to the reg but they quickly dropped the practice. It was obviously designed to regulate fuel pressure to manifold intake pressure and bikes that used the reg sense port had different chips. I suspect in the end it didn't have enough impact on the fuelling to persist with.
When I upgraded my 888 race bike to the quad injectors I also went to the vented reg.
Ciao
It shows it that way in this early document 1989, https://dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf This is a great read if you want a basic understanding of EFI
Connected to the manifold it would constantly be changing the injector pressure, I imagine it would put a lot more strain on the regulator and probably made it tricky to calculate the Mapdirect
As it runs now the injectors run under choked flow conditions, the manifold pressure has no direct effect on the injector flow rate, thats a function of the ECU calculation.
The ECU includes an Absolute Pressure transducer that signals so it can compensate for Altitude by changing the open time. Of course it also included revs, temperature, throttle position, battery Voltage and a few other parameters in the injector time setting (just not by tweaking the supply pressure)
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11 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:
Riding schools,sheez. I've heard of this technique they pedal and wondered. So they want you to stop at the traffic lights/intersection in gear looking in your mirrors and if it looks like you're going to get rear ended then accelerate through the red light or stop sign into the middle of a busy intersection to avoid getting rear ended. Sounds totally illogical to me and relies on you being the first vehicle at the lights/intersection of course.
Cant say I'm a fan of the stop and re start the engine technique either. Engines like to stay running unless its going to be idling for an extended period of time in a traffic jam.
Ciao
I use a range of techniques actually, first of all I try to avoid having to put my feet down, so I time it to catch the green, hold the clutch in for a short light, try not to stop directly behind the vehicle in front so I don't end up the meat in a sandwich and turn the motor off for a long light, it also varies depending on what bike I'm riding.
Luckily I don't have to negotiate busy traffic on a daiiy basis or l would probably give up riding.
It's a good discussion, good to air different points of view.
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In 2001 they had an electric petcock.
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The riding schools teach you to sit with first gear engaged ready to drop the clutch
Lately I have been stopping the engine with the kill switch then turning it back on, a quick jab on the starter button and I'm away.
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It can drop right down to 10 PSI or less while idling hot but should sit around 60 at 2,000 revs.
I had a gauge mounted on the steering damper bracket, you can hard pipe it there with copper. You also get full pressure from either of the head oil lines.
What really gets your attention is the pressure dropping to zero under acceleration if you let the level get too low on the dipstick.
If you don't run a Roper plate you must have a gauge IMHO, the light would likely not catch that event like a gauge.
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I have zero confidence in the Guzzi presses switch. if you crack the fitting going to one of the heads it will soon let you know if there is oil pressure or not.
I suggest you add an oil pressure gauge, oil is normally ~ 60 psi
Update
I thought I had mentioned that the switch tracks across the dirty wet switch insulator, usually all it takes is a wipe with a rag or spray with CRC
For most of my working life I designed industrial instrumentation, you don't buy anything and expect it to work reliably unless it makes sense, a pressure switch that works by distorting a tiny bit of metal a microscopic amount to make a contact makes no sense at all. An industrial switch would have a decent size diaphragm working a snap action switch however switches in an industrial setting are a pain in the arse, we would usually specify a pressure transmitter that could be trended and do the switching in a computerized control system.
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On 10/13/2019 at 1:55 PM, luhbo said:
It's not a big thing. Keep the contacts clean, let the cover open, maybe replace the fuse from time to time. Works perfectly for me.
Or, more action, disassemble the fuse holder and from the downside solder a 30 Amp fuse to the correct cables. Then, in case this fuse should unexpectedly fail resp. burn you could still plug in a spare one from above and ride on.
BTW, putting in two 15A in parallel is not a good idea.
I like that as you say you would be able to replace it until you have a chance to solder another in.
I had one fuse weld in so I cleaned up the contacts and tightened the clips and it never re-occured.
I always meant to look at the current with an oscilloscope, I'm sure the peaks must be well over 30.
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On 9/14/2019 at 12:06 PM, FreyZI said:
Since I purchased my V11 Lemans, I've noticed that it likes to be fairly warm before riding off. It will occassionally cut out (not a stutter and die, just cut out), for example when I've gone a few blocks and pull clutch and brake at a stop sign. Once it's good and warm, no problems. However, I've had a couple gremlins recently. On a trip to a moto hangout about a half hour away, the starter refused to spin for the way home. Bump started it and got home fine. Several subsequent shorter rides started up fine, so I chocked it up to the bike being Italian and did no investigation.
Several weeks ago, I took it on a several hours trip, with about 150 miles of spirited riding on I-80. Once I got off the interstate, it started to sputter a bit, and coming to a stop it cut out. It did start up and I made it the final mile to my destination. Following day, heading home, similar experience. After several hours in 6th gear, it didn't seem to like the B roads.
Most recently, I stopped for gas about 20 minutes into a ride and experienced another no start (no spin). I pushed on the connector at the starter solenoid and it was clearly not tight. Afterward, it started right up; so I assume that was the issue with starting. I'm guessing that there may be some other poor connections that are causing the problem. Any ideas?
I;m assuming you have one of the later VIIs with the Start relay powered from the Ignition Switch
Typically there is too much resistance in the ignition switch and it's associated wires. The Starter solenoid has two coils one that pulls 10 Amps and another that would like to draw 40 Amps but just for a few milliseconds while the solenoid engages and the main contact closes, This is such a common problem it's been named "Startus Interruptus", common to almost every other Guzzi right up to the latest.
You need to clean the ignition switch every few years, take the switch block off the lock (2 Phillips screws) and open it up, wipe out the old grease and replace it with fresh Petroleum Jelly aka Vaseline.
There is a permanent fix (strong feed) that requires a direct connection to the start relay 30 terminal from the battery but it also requires a different arrangement for the feed to the headlight relay, try cleaning the switch first. Drop the negative wire off the battery to make it safe.
I think your problem with cutting out is possibly a dirty side stand switch, carry a short length of wire to stuff in the relay (15) socket 30-87, this will bypass the stand switch as a test.
Further reading
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21206-startus-interuptus-revisited/
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Why do you need to disconnect the wires?
Chop the connector out and use a couple of crimp links or solder the wires. If you ever need to replace the wires make them a bit longer so if you ever need to chop them you have enough length to shorten them.
Heat is resistance x current squared and I believe the current spikes are very high leading to lots of heat.
Also i think the crimp connectors available in The America are smaller than the OEM Guzzi ones.
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The 2000 will have 2 relays in series feeding the headlight, Start relay Normally closed and Headlight relay Normally open, the Voltage reference is tapped into the wire part way along the tank so its subject to the Voltage drop I mentioned. You will see this if you measure between battery Positive and the Black wire of the regulator
The previous owner may have upgraded the regulator already.
If it still has an ancient Ducati Energia regulator definitely add a ground strap from the regulator to an engine bolt and consider a method of eliminating the Voltage drop.
On the other hand the starter wiring on these early models should never have a problem, the start relay is fed direct from a fuse.
Clean the ignition switch, and change the side stand switch, this model can get very dirty before it starts to drop out the ECU
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18 minutes ago, Rox Lemans said:
These bikes are known for eating voltage rectifiers. For a while I thought mine had a short somewhere in the wiring. After a while the voltage rectifiers just go. One thing I do that seems to help is when I don't ride I keep the bike on a battery tender. Just in case. But if the battery is low and you keep cranking the starter with low voltage you fuse WILL pop.
I believe that happens because of the flakey Voltage reference downstream of the headlight relay. This is particularly bad on the earlier bikes where they had two relay contacts in series with the headlight current,
The Voltage the regulator sees is normally about half a Volt lower than the battery Voltage but if the bike has been sitting for a while I have seen mine as much as 1 Volt lower. So when the regulator sees a Voltage 1 Volt lower it jacks up the charging to compensate and the charge current goes up exponentially which will overheat the diodes melting the leads off.
My first experience with this I was able to remove the potting material and re-attach the leads to get about another year out of the regulator, I also took the opportunity to reverse engineer the circuit.
Finally I decided to fit a direct connected regulator, this solved the charging problem however it did add a small residual current that would flatten the battery if left over the winter.
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I suggested this quite a while ago
Take a maxi fuse link and drill a hole in each blade then bolt lugs to it, that will ensure a low resistance and no heat.
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My 2001 had the fuel come out the petcock on the LH side and returned to the tank on the RH through the pressure regulator so if you tilted the bike to the left the pump would immediately pump it back to the right.
I took the pressure regulator off and inserted a bent tube in the return port to direct the return fuel over the hump to the left side. Idea being if you tilted the bike to get the fuel trapped on the right side it should stay left
I sold the bike before I got around to testing the range
I used hydraulic brake line it's available in several sizes
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On 9/3/2019 at 6:17 PM, PDBoulder said:
Hi,
I have a new to me 2003 Lemans that just last week experienced a relay failure. Heading home after work, it was about 98 degF traveling about 80mph and the bike started cutting out, bucking pretty bad. I managed to make it home, about another ten miles. I had just purchased a tank of gas and suspected that I kicked up something in the bottom of the tank that was causing the intermittent cutout. Pulled the pump and filter, replacing the filter. Nope, that wasn’t it. The bike would still cut out. By pure luck I noticed that relays #4 and #5 were very hot. The prior bike owner provided me with several new Omron G8HE-1A7T-R1-DC12 relays. Sure as shit, replacing relay #4 and contact grease solved the problem. The problem is that today on my way home from work in 85 degree weather the new relay failed. At lunch I had put 70 miles on the bike in and around boulder canyon. Bike ran flawlessly. Air temp was about 80deg. I tested the old relay and it tests fine 83Ohm coil, and 0.1 Ohm contact resistance? So, what is the root cause of the relay failure? Is it the female spade connector losing its spring when hot? Oxidation on the blade? The old relay even when the bike had cooled down still failed in slot #4. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Paul
It may not be a relay problem, could be a dirty side stand switch allowing relay 4 to drop out resetting the ECU, try removing the stand relay R3 and stuffing a jumper in the socket between 30 and 87. This happened to my 01
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Looking for Oil Pressure Data for Hi Cams & V11s
in Technical Topics
Posted
I have installed a gauge on a VII Sport, its tied in at the same point as the pressure switch and mounted on the steering damper bracket, yes the pressure is as you say/
I also have a gauge on my 72 Eldorado, it's tapped into the RH head oil feed and shows similar pressure when cold but drops down to 10 PSI at hot idle