hard hitting forks

[renato]

Yes i dismantled the forks i drained them,

everthing is aligned and yes i will study the links ratchet sent me. Did i mention i worked at a mc repair shop as head mechanic

[Baldini]

Did i mention i worked at a mc repair shop as head mechanic

 

No, I don't think so.

[dlaing]

Ok,when i purchased her n i say her because she can be a *&%## sometimes but ya gotta love her, she rode great then it started getting stiff so i changed the oil with amsoil light fork oil, put in exactly what factory recomends (factory dealers man. dont ever buy one) and she rode perfect, i dont put much of a load on her since most of my riding was in nyc (pot holes the size of snake river canyon) i wieght about 180 pounds. anyhow then it started to ride hard again so i drained 1/4 oz and it made no difference. She does not bottom she just wont move much and at a stand still she only moves about 3 inches with all my wieght being forced down and recently the bushings are starting to go probabally due to the front end not working properly, or could that be due to hard braking, you do have to compete with cabs and buses in the city, hope this is enough, thank you.

1/4 oz is not much. As others said, you need to measure the level, not the quantity.

From the information you gave it sounds like the oil level could be too high, but I agree with the other speculators that if it went from riding perfect to too hard just from riding it, indicates mechanical failure.

Another long shot speculative possibility is that a spacer was misplaced or omitted at the front wheel.

Since you were a professional mechanic, and not a more words is better creative writer, like Ratchet, you probably neglected to tell us you covered most of the obvious, set the sag, measured the oil level not oil quantity, set the forks and axle up properly, leaving only mechanical failure or the Marzocchi's unique qualities.

I know nothing about bushing failure, but this thread http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...%20jam&st=0

about the blue jam nut and how if it is set too far from the 22mm spec the damping adjusters will malfunction. So the height of the jam nut should not be used to set preload. Trimming PVC spacers is the preferred method for setting preload.

[renato]

No, I don't think so.

 

I never meant to direct that at you. I humbley apoligize.....i should never go on line when im tired.

[pete roper]

If we can get away from the histrionics and grandstanding for a minute?

 

Ratch's suspension stuff is top-notch. This, along with the manual and your own knowledge should enable you to get the front end working as well as it can be expected to.

 

My feeling is that as the stiction, ( A common term used to describe an increase in static and sliding friction.) has increased incrementally, albeit fast, the best option is to take the forks completely apart and find out why. Yes it's a pain in the arse, but it's a damn sight better than having a locked up front end.

 

Obne of the common reasons why forks go stiff is that there are rubber components, (Or plastic.) in side the fork and for whatever reason they begin to break up. This then clogs the hoiles in the valves in the cartriges or gets stuck betwixt slider and tube. Either of these situations will lead to a gradual stiffening of the action and if the problem is the holes being blocked the hydraulic forces can cause damage to the valve plates etc. so it's worth sorting out ASAP.

 

The actual labour involved isn't an awful lot. A couple of hours and its done. But you're probably like me and are afraid of stuffing something up, even though we know it's really simple nuts and bolts.

 

Jack the bugger up, pull the legs out and give them a proper seeing to. As I've oft said before if you ride a Guzzi you need all the help you can get. The 'Ace up our sleeve' is that we CAN get our bikes to handle well. Do that and the power disadvantage simply melts away

 

Pete

[dlaing]

If we can get away from the histrionics and grandstanding for a minute?

 

Ratch's suspension stuff is top-notch.

Oxymoron?

[Guest ratchethack]

I've been monitoring this board for something like 5 years. In all of this time, I've never seen anything to match the neglect and abuse to which riders subject their forks!

 

Any other component that requires proper setup and maintenance pretty much seems to get wot it was designed and spec'd for -- or at least something approaching it. It's not rocket science. And yet, though I reckon 99% of neglect cases go entirely undiagnosed and unreported here, wot trickles out the bottom o' this oozing compost heap is an irrepressible, steady litany of posts of grief, failure, and attendant bad handling, reflecting poorly on Guzzi as an otherwise competent handling road machine. I reckon I just don't get it.

 

Seems to me that for every rider who properly sets up and maintains his fork (a requirement for EVERY moto, not just Guzzi's), and thereby enjoys the full extent of handling capability that the Guzzi was designed with in the first place (IMHO it's really pretty damned good for a road machine), we have maybe 100 riders who never properly set up their forks, never properly service them on recommended fluid change intervals -- and who, therefore, despite years of ownership in many cases, haven't the foggiest notion wot a properly handling Guzzi is like to ride -- and who wash up here on the beach half drowned and miserable, with complaints of poor fork operation and bad handling?!?!

 

Then, on top o' this, these tales of woe are historically met with advice from others (who typically have ZERO experience properly setting up and maintaining these forks themselves) that the forks are to blame! Every complaint I've seen refers to a Marzocchi that's typically NEVER BEEN SET UP, NEVER BEEN SERVICED, AND IS FAR OVERDUE -- regardless of the several different models of Marz forks V11s were built with, along with the clear message that ALL Marz forks are without any doubt bad designs to start with, and "racing components/revalve jobs" and/or complete replacement are the only solution . . . Now the helluvit is that once enough damage has been done -- not to mention years and miles of proper handling forever LOST -- there often ain't any other choice!

 

Makes me wonder how all those Ohlins forks are faring out there with wot has to be a similar level of neglect, not to mention the corroborating reports we've seen that average fork seal life on "ultra low stiction" Ohlins seals is something in the neighborhood of only 6K miles, compared to 30K+ miles on most models of "normally low stiction" Marz forks. . . Could it be that since the skillfully cultivated market perception consensus holds the name Ohlins up as the moto paragon and V11 sine qua non, that similar neglect of Ohlins forks doesn't get reported, because of the notion that there's no blaming "the best there is", 'cause there's nowhere left to go from Ohlins on the old "why maintain a-tall, when you can upgrade?" treadmill??

 

Enquiring minds. . . (well, you know).

 

Wot we have heah is FAILYAH T' COMMUN'CATE!

[mike wilson]

Actually, there _is_ somewhere to go. It's far, far away from the high tech pogo stick that is the modern telescopic fork, trying to do three jobs and doing none of them that well.

 

I do admit, rather like the singing elephant, it is miraculous that any of the jobs are done at all but, until steering, suuspension and braking are separated, we will never know the real potential of our machines.

[Guest ratchethack]

Mike, I'm intrigued by your post. Please expand on this?

 

By "somewhere to go" and "far, far away", unless you're referring to err, a place other than here :

 

 

-- that is, another place with an altogether different reality of its own, so often made familiar to us all by another Forum member, I presume you refer to some alternative to "the modern telescopic fork"?

 

If such is your meaning, unless you have something specific in mind, now we're immediately off in the boundless imaginary realm of theoretical and unlimited (gag, choke) speculation, n'est-ce pas? Are there front-end designs you're aware of that are not subject to inherent compromises between steering, suspension, and braking? Please advise?

. . .we will never know the real potential of our machines.

As I seem to find meself so often pointing out, the word, "real" in "real potential" generally means that it must exist somewhere in physical dimensions on this planet other than in dreams and unfettered imaginary projections into the great unknown. . .

 

My point above is that all Guzzisti CAN MOST CERTAINLY know the REAL handling potential of our machines "as built" -- ONLY by setting them up properly as intended by the engineers, without which there ain't any possibility wotsoever.

[Skeeve]

By "somewhere to go" and "far, far away", unless you're referring to err, a place other than here , so often made familiar to us all by another Forum member, I presume you refer to some alternative to "the modern telescopic fork"?

... Are there front-end designs you're aware of that are not subject to inherent compromises between steering, suspension, and braking? Please advise?

 

That's the way I read it.

 

As you say, all alternatives have their own set of compromises, but it's fairly well known that the tele fork as instituted by BMW back in the 30s didn't really threaten the other front ends available at the time [leading/trailing links, girders, etc.] until sometime in the mid-60s when the dirt bike revolution came along and pretty much dictated the fashion for years to come. When it comes to light, long travel front end suspension, the tele fork is king! Of course, on a road bike, the long travel is less of an issue than the lightness, and neither is as important as low unsprung wt., ceteris parabus. As for the whole "fork dive" issue, the J4 brands all came up w/ their own variations on a theme back in the 80s, met with disappointment, & reverted to just normal operation (interestingly enough, spending time thinking about their approach instead of merely engineering another way of accomplishing the same thing as the competition leads one quickly to the realization that they were finding solutions for the wrong variable! )

 

Any way, there are few front suspensions that work as well on-road as a properly engineering updated version of the leading link arrangement seen on Guzzi racers of the late 40s/early 50s. Go figure! Of course, there are always alternatives like the Parker? front end Yamaha used on the GTS1000 [another vastly underrated machine that just couldn't find a market because of the difficulty the mass market had w/ its looks. Oddly enough, hidebound traditionalist & confirmed Luddite that I usually am, I always thought the GTS looked great. Too bad I didn't have the money to vote my wallet at the time!]

[dlaing]

Makes me wonder how all those Ohlins forks are faring out there with wot has to be a similar level of neglect, not to mention the corroborating reports we've seen that average fork seal life on "ultra low stiction" Ohlins seals is something in the neighborhood of only 6K miles, compared to 30K+ miles on most models of "normally low stiction" Marz forks. . .

16K miles on Ohlins and loving it.

No blown seals.

Smoother ride.

Better control.

More stable.

Imagine how good they'll be if I ever put the proper fork springs in!!!

I have to wonder if those blowing seals are setting their fluid level to high????

IMHO the air spring is to assist the metal spring, not replace it.

[Guest ratchethack]

16K miles on Ohlins and loving it.

No blown seals.

Smoother ride.

Better control.

More stable.

Imagine how good they'll be if I ever put the proper fork springs in!!!

I have to wonder if those blowing seals are setting their fluid level to high????

IMHO the air spring is to assist the metal spring, not replace it.

Interesting. . . sort of.

 

How oft we're reminded that there are none so blind as those who will not see. . . And waddayagonna do?

 

Of course you have to imagine, wonder, and speculate, Dave. After all, it's wot you do first, foremost, and best.

 

I've pointed out the following previously -- several times, I b'lieve. You've evidently missed it each time.

 

But then, as is often the case, and as observed recently:

Redundancy helps.

"Smoother ride, better control, and more stable", eh? The key significance here is -- COMPARED TO WHAT?

 

Dave, may I safely conclude that your comparisons above are between your original stock Marz 040 USD fork -- same fork as mine -- and your replacement for it, your Ohlins fork? Of course, in your case the big fat horsefly in the ointment here has always been that you'd never replaced the stock .64kg/mm springs that came with the Marz, the rate of which is correct for riders of ~125-150 lbs., your weight being something on the order of nearly double this at ~220-230 lbs (I think you said?), and the rate of the springs in your Ohlins replacement fork being somewhere approaching double that of the springs in the Marz, (~1 kg/mm) or do you know?

 

Of course you're "loving it", Dave! You were previously riding on a Marz fork with springs almost entirely sacked out, on something like an inch of remaining fork travel at the bottom, (a woefully pathetic, mockery of a mismatch) mostly on the jarring rising rate of the air spring, with the entire geometry of the chassis way out o' whack! I know (since I know this fork quite well and I know those same springs quite well also) that depending on how (or IF) the preload was ever set, that with those springs, at least one if not both of your sags had to've been set waaaaaaay off in the Great Blue Yonder at probably triple or quadruple multiples of what they should've been! With the fork this badly set up, its damping capability is rendered inoperable and useless. Of course, replacing this mess with nearly anything would be an improvement over such a godawfully poor mismatch!

 

Just as a little comparison to your situation above here. Since I resprung and properly set the preload and sags on my Marz 040 USD fork (for a fairly nominal cost in terms of time and expense), I've had:

 

24K miles and loving it.

No blown seals.

Smoother ride (by an order of magnitude).

Better control (likewise).

More stable (likewise).

Imagine how good they'll be if I ever put the proper fork springs in!!!

Now in my case (unlike your own), I have no inclination to imagine, wonder or speculate how good these forks can be, since I got the proper springs in it many years ago (with rates correctly matched to load and sags properly set), got the proper cartridge fork fluid in it, and got the damping sorted.

 

You see, unlike yourself, I actually know what my forks' full capabilities actually are, having ridden for many years now, knowing with full confidence and without question that I've had the best performance they're capable of all this time and all these many miles, along with the best handling my Guzzi is capable of with these forks -- while over the same period of time, and however many thou miles, you've been missing the same thing entirely whilst imagining, wondering and speculating about it (as you indicated above you're still doing today). . .

 

So please -- I'm begging you -- don't insult our intelligence and embarass yourself any further at the same time again, Dave, by attempting to claim you actually know what kind of performance either the Marz 040 USD fork, OR your Ohlins fork is fully capable of -- let alone attempt to qualify yourself as capable of making a fair comparison between them! -- without ever once having proper spring rates matched to load and your sags correctly set with EITHER FORK! This is an utter and complete impossibility -- and furthermore, you know it!!

 

NOTE: I don't recall any posts about Ohlins fork seals "blowing". But their faster-wearing "ultra low stiction" nature has been posted and confirmed by many on this Forum (and many others) to be an average of wot has been stated as 6K mile useful life. The reported symptoms I've seen have been progressive leaking, as with any worn-out fork seal. Of course there are many conditions of riding on the road that influence how long seals last.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[belfastguzzi]

16K miles on Ohlins and loving it.

 

I have to wonder if those blowing seals are setting their fluid level to high????

IMHO the air spring is to assist the metal spring, not replace it.

I don't believe so. I know that I maintained, flushed out, refilled my forks very carefully – and looked after them with cleaning and and greasing. The tube surface is all good. Baldini has suffered the same thing with regularity and again, I know that his have been looked after.

 

The seals aren't what I would call 'blown'. It's just that they started leaking, again. The second fork tube's seal went within a week or so of the first.

 

The only common denominator that can be identified is that the bikes sat for a while without being used. The conclusion would be that these seals, which may be more biased to track use and regular changing, don't cope well with any laying-up. They possibly dry very easily – and then leak. They need to be kept working. ?

[Murray]

If the orginal poster have everything backed off completly he may be getting "pump down" where the oil is pumping into one section of the fork usually the compression setting. Normally caused but a low compression setting and a high rebound or vise versa although on the standard marzocchi's where one for is rebound and the other compression this should be next to impossible to achieve. When you say everything backed off you mean both forks right? or depending on the model some of the adjusters might be in the bottom of the fork.

[dlaing]

I don't believe so. I know that I maintained, flushed out, refilled my forks very carefully – and looked after them with cleaning and and greasing. The tube surface is all good. Baldini has suffered the same thing with regularity and again, I know that his have been looked after.

 

The seals aren't what I would call 'blown'. It's just that they started leaking, again. The second fork tube's seal went within a week or so of the first.

 

The only common denominator that can be identified is that the bikes sat for a while without being used. The conclusion would be that these seals, which may be more biased to track use and regular changing, don't cope well with any laying-up. They possibly dry very easily – and then leak. They need to be kept working. ?

Filled very carefully to what level?

I keep mine over 100mm from the top.

You could be right about not riding regularly.

I am blessed with weather that does not force much down time.

But I often fail to find time to ride. So there have been a few three week periods where the bike just sat.