Oil requirements

[activpop]

I'm a little baffled. Coppa owners manual has required oil stated as 5w40. V11 manual calls for 20w50. I thought these engines are basically the same. What gives?

[docc]

Changes in how the motor vehicle industry has been challenged to reduce emissions. Thinner oil = less friction = less fuel consumption over an entire fleet of a manufacturers' vehicle range.

Basically the same "thinking" that gave us "lifetime" lubricants and "the computer will tell you when to change oil" aka: vastly extended change intervals to show the world how a particular range of vehicles is reducing consumption and waste. Certainly, this "engineering" has been mindful of the warranty period.

Others have a more technical and informed view of the matter. I was just "in a mood" and there is my
 

[activpop]

@docc, I get all that, and I agree when we are talking engines 20 years apart. But these engines, and user manuals are only three years apart. But it could be because they were written by Italians. 

[docc]

Seems the entire passenger car industry went through this transition in lubricant "recommendations."

I remember this discussion regarding a Jeep I owned with a motor that had been produced over a significant span of years with no mechanical or tolerance changes, yet the "recommended oil" kept getting thinner and thinner.  At the time, there were knowledgeable folks that argued for using the oil that was spec'd for the engine when it was developed, rather than later recommendations seemingly driven by goals other than long term ownership and reliability.

As always, "YMMV" . . .

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, activpop said:

@docc, I get all that, and I agree when we are talking engines 20 years apart. But these engines, and user manuals are only three years apart. But it could be because they were written by Italians. 

I guess because things don't necessarily change in a linier manner. It's all a bit of a moot point anyway as you should always aim for a few basic parameters which are.

1 choose a group 4 or 5 genuine synthetic oil

2 choose the lowest "W" grade you can get (mindful of #4)

3 Chose the "hot" grade that suits your operating environment. Commuting, OAT, track days, racing, hot weather two up touring etc. 

4 Minimise the grade spread to "30"preferably to minimise the percentage of viscosity improvers in the oil. 

My Supra with the BMW engine got the 0W-20 dumped at the 1000klm oil change and in went the 5W-30 because I prefer to consider engine wear over meeting mandated fuel economy targets

Phil 

PS here's another thing. Manufacturers often have esp 25 years ago product deals with oil companies and recommend/specify their particular oil products. Sometimes the deals swap to other oil manufacturers and the motorcycle manufacturers oil grade requirements are adjusted to reflect what the new/latest oil manufacture makes viscosity wise.

Edited July 9 by Lucky Phil

[pete roper]

Yes, it needs oil.

Put some in it.

[activpop]

I have had big twins since 1977. I'll do what I always have done.  20w50 summer, 10w40 winter. Never had a problem.  But then there are my 1200 8v's that calls for 10w60. Never understood that big spread on viscosity. I follow their recommendations for those two, but it still has me scratching my head. It certainly goes against @Lucky Phil #4.

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, activpop said:

I have had big twins since 1977. I'll do what I always have done.  20w50 summer, 10w40 winter. Never had a problem.  But then there are my 1200 8v's that calls for 10w60. Never understood that big spread on viscosity. I follow their recommendations for those two, but it still has me scratching my head. It certainly goes against @Lucky Phil #4.

Just like technology and the need to keep up to date with it and stay abreast of new developments so it goes with oils. I don't think anyone makes a group 4 full synthetic 20W-50 anymore so thats one I'd leave behind. The 10W-60 is a very large spread and I don't believe is justified in the 8V engine although I know Pete thinks it's justified because it has oil cooling galleries around the exhaust ports. I've never been able to find any data that a 60 weight oil has any appreciable advantage in the ability to extract more heat from a surface than a 40 weight oil plus they won't flow as well in the small oil galleries so I'm not in that camp. Plus the 8V valves are overcooled anyway. I also think from memory Guzzi upped the 8V 1200 oil spec to 60 weight in the midst of their flat tappet failure fiasco which wasn't due to oil viscosity but material coating choice.  

Sometimes you have to accept that like the 40 ton flywheel the manufacturers have old ideas that they can't sacrifice to modern tech. So Guzzi see someone now makes a 10W-60 and heavier is better so they spec that. Nothing in that engine requires a 60 weight that I can see. The 8V Daytona/Centeuro engine though is another matter. I run 10W-60 in that because in our hot climate with an engine that runs very hot cylinder head temps I think it's justified to hold up the idle oil pressure in the summer weather in traffic.

[activpop]

@Lucky Phil, Mobil 1 makes both a 15w50 and a 20w50. I don't know if it is type 4 or 5, can't find anything on the bottle that says that. The 20w50 is specifically marketed for 4 stroke V twins.

I have used Castrol for decades.  In the last few years they have completely changed their offerings. I can't get what I want from them now.

[docc]

18 minutes ago, activpop said:

@Lucky Phil, Mobil 1 makes both a 15w50 and a 20w50. I don't know if it is type 4 or 5, can't find anything on the bottle that says that. The 20w50 is specifically marketed for 4 stroke V twins.

I have used Castrol for decades.  In the last few years they have completely changed their offerings. I can't get what I want from them now.

I gave up on Mobile1 for the motorcycles when I could not discern their base oil. Same with Lucas. Frankly, that suggests (to me) they are only Group 2 base oils.

RedLine is a reliable Group 5 (full ester) base oil, if I understand correctly. Also, Schaeffer's Specialized Lubricants and Brad Penn/ PennGrade are worth looking at.

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, docc said:

I gave up on Mobile1 for the motorcycles when I could not discern their base oil. Same with Lucas. Frankly, that suggests (to me) they are only Group 2 base oils.

RedLine is a reliable Group 5 (full ester) base oil, if I understand correctly. Also, Schaeffer's Specialized Lubricants and Brad Penn/ PennGrade are worth looking at.

Mobil 1 docc is a full Grp 4 synthetic as far as I know. Castrol "synthetic has a habit of being a mineral base oil with additives. Remember that court case 20 odd years ago where a US Judge decided what was Synthetic oil and what was not! It's evolved over they years and I don't actually know if it's the best full synth anymore as the market has become flooded with boutique oils now. As for V twin specific oils well thats just another example of a boutique oil. People demand a 20W-50 then if they think there's a market or they can pump one up then they'll make oil for it. At the end of the day fiddling an existing formulation to create a "specific" oil is pretty easy and the biggest cost is the packaging. Bit of extra this a bit less of that a new label on the bottle and presto, V-twin oil. Not saying it's bad just it'll be more marketing than something really advantageous for your engine. 

[O2 V11]

Phil,

Penrite has you covered with a wide range of 100% PAO and Ester oils, mostly sold as being shear free including the elusive 20W-50 V twin.

Rob

[pete roper]

I used, and still use in my own bikes, Penrite’s 10/60 just not the ‘Motorcycle’ formula. I dunno if its thermal carriage ability is any better or worse than a 10/40. Probably not and it isn’t that important in something as simple as a Guzzi, even the 8V’s. My Mana’s call for a 10/40 but I can’t be arsed with having an extra 20 litre drum knocking around! So they get the 10/60 as well. They haven’t blown up or melted into a pool of slag yet!

None of my bikes are race machines where I’m chasing every tenth of a horsepower so frictional losses don’t worry me a jot and as long as it flows well enough when cold that pump-up time isn’t excessive I reckon virtually anything will make a wedge where it’s needed so I just buy Penrite because it’s decent and readily available.

We all have our preferences. I for instance despise Castrol, especially their engine oils but that is a prejudice that dates back to the 1970’s and is probably completely irrelevant now!

As I said before. Oil is required. Put some in it!

[MartyNZ]

8 hours ago, docc said:

I gave up on Mobile1 for the motorcycles when I could not discern their base oil. 

As far as I can tell Mobil 1 is a blend of synthetic and mineral oils. It was originally a pure synthetic, but Mobil successfully lobbied to continue using the 'synthetic' description while changing the formulation to a blend. They can do that in the US [where their lobbying dollars get traction] but countries like Japan and many Euro countries actually require that products are described acurately. How bloody old fashioned is THAT?

Anyway I have been using Penrite 10Tenths 5W-50 which is type 4 PAO & type 5 Ester blend, but the low pressure light is slow to go off. I will go back to something thicker. 

I wonder if the full synth has more feel good than real benefit. Regular oil changes of a semi-synth are probably all I need.

[audiomick]

On 7/9/2025 at 9:16 PM, activpop said:

I'm a little baffled. Coppa owners manual has required oil stated as 5w40. V11 manual calls for 20w50. I thought these engines are basically the same. What gives?

I'm pulling things together here out of stuff I've read here and there, and haven't got time now to go and research it properly, nevertheless...

There was a California 1100 model with hydraulic tappets. It needed, if I recall correctly, 5W40 for the tappets to work properly.

I believe I have read elsewhere that this oil specification made its way (copy and paste error....) into the manuals of some other models which didn't have the hydraulic tappets, and should have had 20W50 or 10W50 specified.

Like I said, I don't have time to research that properly right now, but I'm pretty sure that could explain the specification in the Coppa manual.

Edited July 11 by audiomick