Is my Electrosport Stator Defective?

[Sam P]

10 hours ago, gstallons said:

Sam , according to your post , after replacement........... So , this problem existed before you replaced everything. No light w/ KOEO, light on at high RPMs and overcharging.

 The problem is going to be with the charge light circuit.  Since the light does not come on KOEO ,  With the KOEO , disconnect the connector w/the black wire and white wire. First use a test light and ground the white wire of the engine harness and see if the light comes on. If not use a jumper wire to see if the light comes on. If it still does not come on the problem exists in this circuit. 

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that a faulty charge light circuit could be causing the low voltage output from the regulator? If so I will go through your troubleshooting recommendation.

This morning I made new butt connections on the stator to regulator yellow wires, and the DC voltage from the regulator is still only 12.3v at idle, and does not increase when revved up. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:11 PM by Sam P

[Sam P]

23 hours ago, audiomick said:

What I did find is this. I only read it fairly quickly, but it seems to cover pretty much everything as far as I can tell with my level of knowledge. They don't explain exactly what fault they are looking for at each step, but I could tell from the test itself what nearly all of them were. A potentially useful document, I think, not only for the case in hand.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1091/5694/files/fault-finding-diagram.pdf?235929069374954073

Thank you for this. That troubleshooting flow chart is also on the Electrosport website, and I hesitated using it until I could get some opinions here on the forum. I am awaiting a reply on the most recent suggestion from @gstallons, and depending on his reply I will go ahead and proceed with the linked troubleshooting guide.

Edited Tuesday at 09:14 PM by Sam P

[audiomick]

3 hours ago, Sam P said:

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that a faulty charge light circuit could be causing the low voltage output from the regulator? If so I will go through your troubleshooting recommendation.

No. As far as I understand the wiring diagrams, I can't see any way that this could happen.

What I suspect is that there are two faults: the charging system isn't charging for whatever reason, and that there is a fault in the charge warning light that prevents it from lighting up until the revs get over 4,000. The suspicion is an intermittent contact in the warning lamp circuit somewhere that gains contact due to the increased and/or higher frequency vibrations at higher revs.

The fact that the warning lamp isn't lighting up at lower revs could be disguising the fact that the charging circuit isn't working at any revs rather than, as it appears, failing at higher revs. That's assuming that my suspicion of a fault in there is correct.

Do the troubleshooting as I described. It shouldn't be too difficult, I think, and might shed a new light on the situation. 

[Lucky Phil]

I remember that BMW's use the charging indicator light as part of the charging regulation system. If the charge light bulb burns out then you get nothing out of the alternator. Left me stranded on the side of the road in the Isle of Mann in 1984. Not sure if it's applicable to the V11 system though.

Phil

[docc]

7 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

I remember that BMW's use the charging indicator light as part of the charging regulation system. If the charge light bulb burns out then you get nothing out of the alternator. Left me stranded on the side of the road in the Isle of Mann in 1984. Not sure if it's applicable to the V11 system though.

Phil

I don't think so (for our V11).

Yet, issues with this connector (indicator light and reference voltage) or its course of wiring/ connections might involve both the light behavior and the actual charging fault . . .

I had to seal mine at some point . . .

[Sam P]

26 minutes ago, audiomick said:

No. As far as I understand the wiring diagrams, I can't see any way that this could happen.

What I suspect is that there are two faults: the charging system isn't charging for whatever reason, and that there is a fault in the charge warning light that prevents it from lighting up until the revs get over 4,000. The suspicion is an intermittent contact in the warning lamp circuit somewhere that gains contact due to the increased and/or higher frequency vibrations at higher revs.

The fact that the warning lamp isn't lighting up at lower revs could be disguising the fact that the charging circuit isn't working at any revs rather than, as it appears, failing at higher revs. That's assuming that my suspicion of a fault in there is correct.

Do the troubleshooting as I described. It shouldn't be too difficult, I think, and might shed a new light on the situation. 

When you say "Do the troubleshooting as I described" I assume you are referring to your post a few hours ago in which you linked the workshop manual from Guzzitech.com? Or, are you referring to the Electrosport flow chart you linked I believe yesterday?  

(I wish this otherwise excellent forum had sequential numbers on the posts in the subforums, maybe @Admin Jaap could do it? Numbered post are easy to reference, of course). 

[Pressureangle]

I screenshot KiwiRoy's schematic so we can see it more easily. It says clearly that the voltage reference comes from the headlamp circuit. Have to go back to see if the bulb is in that circuit or not.
 

Edited Tuesday at 11:05 PM by Pressureangle

[audiomick]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

I remember that BMW's use the charging indicator light as part of the charging regulation system. If the charge light bulb burns out then you get nothing out of the alternator....

...Not sure if it's applicable to the V11 system though.

I don't think it is applicable to the V11.

The older Tonti models utilise, as far as I understand it, the charge light to energise the "electromagnet" part of the Bosch alternator. It needs to be an incandescent bulb within a specific wattage range. Changing it to an LED means you have to put a ballast resistor in the circuit to keep the rotor energised. Given the similarities to the older BMW models in a lot of respects (hate to admit it, but it is true... ) I reckon that is the common ground.

In the V11, the charge warning light does indeed get it's power from the same circuit that supplies the reference voltage for the regulator. I can't, however, see any reason at all why the charging system wouldn't work if the charge warning lamp was not even there. It gets switched to ground "behind" the regulator when the charge voltage drops below the battery voltage, and has no influence at all on the regulation of the charging system or the operation of the alternator.

[Pressureangle]

4 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

I screenshot KiwiRoy's schematic so we can see it more easily. It says clearly that the voltage reference comes from the headlamp circuit. Have to go back to see if the bulb is in that circuit or not.
 

So, no, the charge lamp does not 'activate' the regulator. The headlamp circuit supplies voltage to both the regulator and the charge lamp, and the internals of the regulator do in fact 'balance' the voltage to the indicator lamp. 

With regards to our symptoms, the lamp is a clue; it will be dark *any time* the headlamp circuit is dead...and most of the time while it's live. The only time the lamp is *supposed* to come on is when the Battery, via the HL circuit, has more voltage than the regulator is outputting. 

[audiomick]

31 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

... KiwiRoy's schematic... It says clearly that the voltage from the charge lamp circuit turns on the regulator to send voltage to the battery. No bulb, no voltage. ...

I beg to differ. Look at the V11 wiring diagram here, page 364

https://guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/1100/V11_1999-2003_Atelier(Compil-GB-D-NL).pdf

Ok, I see you have posted again whilst I was writing and checking my sources, and have seen it already, but I will continue for the sake of general edification. 

When the key is switched on, the lighting relay switches on and provides power through a red-black wire to the entire lighting circuit, and the oil light, fuel light, tacho (power, not the back-light), and the reference voltage for the regulator.

After the charge warning light, a light blue wire goes to the regulator. The regulator switches this to ground when the charging voltage is below the battery voltage (key on, engine off, or the alternator has failed), causing the charge warning light to light up.

So:

the presence or absence or functionality of the charge warning light can not have any influence on whether the charging system works or not.

and, the reference voltage supply is the same one that causes the warning lamp to light up, actually, but the two functions (reference and warning) are completely independant of one another. It's like they "stole" a bit of the reference voltage to light the lamp. I find that somehow weird, but apparently it works. 

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:34 PM by audiomick

[docc]

Perhaps it could be valuable to specify that the reference voltage comes from Relay #2. Sure, that supplies the headlight but also the brake light, horns, tachometer, power to the "warning lights" (including the battery light), as well as the reference voltage to the regulator.

 

[audiomick]

27 minutes ago, Sam P said:

When you say "Do the troubleshooting as I described" I assume you are referring to your post a few hours ago in which you linked the workshop manual from Guzzitech.com? Or, are you referring to the Electrosport flow chart you linked I believe yesterday?  

I'm referring to the troubleshooting that I described in my post, but going through the Electrosport flow-chart looks like a good idea too.

 

PS: regarding quoting or referring to posts: if you right-click on the "time-stamp" at the top of the relevant post, chose "copy link address" from the menu that appears, and paste that into your reply, you get this:

I think that is what you are looking for in that regard.

[Pressureangle]

34 minutes ago, audiomick said:

 

and, the reference voltage supply is the same one that causes the warning lamp to light up, actually, but the two functions (reference and warning) are completely independant of one another. It's like they "stole" a bit of the reference voltage to light the lamp. I find that somehow weird, but apparently it works. 

 

The lamp itself can illuminate with far less than 12 volts, so the lit lite doesn't tell us the circuit voltage is good. 
I'm curious about the headlamp too, LEDs are internally regulated to about 5vdc so even if for instance the headlight circuit is only getting 8vdc the LEDs are still bright. I'm trying not to confuse the OP, or myself, by theorizing too much before he can catch up on physical diagnostics.  

[gstallons]

7 hours ago, Speedfrog said:

“KOEO” . . . That acronym makes my head spin  . . . On or Off???

It is from Ford service information= KOEO or KOER. Key on Engine Off or Key On Engine Running

[Sam P]

42 minutes ago, audiomick said:

I'm referring to the troubleshooting that I described in my post, but going through the Electrosport flow-chart looks like a good idea too.

 

PS: regarding quoting or referring to posts: if you right-click on the "time-stamp" at the top of the relevant post, chose "copy link address" from the menu that appears, and paste that into your reply, you get this:

I think that is what you are looking for in that regard.

Well I do 99% of my www activity from an iPad - no right click available, lol!

I will continue to troubleshoot and report back. Crap, glad I have my Quota to ride while the much more fun V11S is under repair. It's a beautiful time to ride here in Colorado.

Edited Wednesday at 12:16 AM by Sam P
Add Quota pic