Guest Megarad Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 Moto Spezial do this custom upgraded temperature sensor to replace the OEM sensor. This was designed to sort the temp sensor issues.Its a shame that Guzzi themselves haven't come up with an upgrade like this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryland3210 Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Moto Spezial do this custom upgraded temperature sensor to replace the OEM sensor. This was designed to sort the temp sensor issues.Its a shame that Guzzi themselves haven't come up with an upgrade like this one. Nothing is perfect, and Guzzi has had plenty of challenges recently to occupy them. This does not look like the same location my sensor is in. Would this apply to an '04 V11 Cafe Sport? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 .....Its a shame that Guzzi themselves haven't come up with an upgrade like this one.... What makes you think that this was a better solution? What you really want to see is the temperature around the inlet valve or inlet duct. It makes no sense to measure the temperature of the cooling fins, nor is the oil temperature a realy relevant value to trigger the ecu. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeve Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 What makes you think that this was a better solution? What you really want to see is the temperature around the inlet valve or inlet duct. It makes no sense to measure the temperature of the cooling fins, nor is the oil temperature a realy relevant value to trigger the ecu. Hubert Well, sorta: on air-cooled engines, cylinder head temps are more important than the incoming air temp for prevention of pinging. It's not an air-cooled motor, or even an air- & oil-cooled motor, it's an air, oil, & fuel-cooled motor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Megarad Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 I personly dont think a company such as Moto Spezial would offer such a product unless it was a huge improvement on the original. The guys have done the R&D that the guzzi factory should have done and come up with an omprovement. The original has an air gap between the sensor tip and the aluminium recepticle it bolts into. The new item has much better heat transfer to the sensor. It doesnt realy matter were you put it on the top end of the motor as once the engine is at running temp it will be more than hot enough to turn of the cold enrichment.Provided you have propper heat transfer to the sensor of course. The standard setup has always been sub standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 A bit of heat conductive jelly would have done the same job, just better and cheaper. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 I personly dont think a company such as Moto Spezial would offer such a product unless it was a huge improvement on the original. The guys have done the R&D that the guzzi factory should have done and come up with an omprovement. The original has an air gap between the sensor tip and the aluminium recepticle it bolts into. The new item has much better heat transfer to the sensor. It doesnt realy matter were you put it on the top end of the motor as once the engine is at running temp it will be more than hot enough to turn of the cold enrichment.Provided you have propper heat transfer to the sensor of course. The standard setup has always been sub standard. Hmmmmmmm. Lots of claims here. Based on -- wot?? Have you installed this yourself? Does the mere offer of an aftermarket replacement product make it superior to a known sub-standard OEM product? Is it merely a sales claim that makes it an "upgrade"?? Many Guzzisti (meself included) aren't willing to take naked sales claims at face value -- for ample reason. Upon what, exactly, do you place your trust here, Megarad? Surely not simply the fact that MS offers something with a sales claim of superiority?! It'd be nice to have something from a known credible independent source to back up the claims, n'est-ce pas? Testing, perhaps? A number (or at least one!) objective, significant, repeatable, qualititive, well conducted field evaluation of some kind?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryland3210 Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 A bit of heat conductive jelly would have done the same job, just better and cheaper. Hubert I plan on using copper based anti-seize. Is that similar to what you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Megarad Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Hey Guys this item is 64 Euros plus postage of course .It certainly wont brake the bank.Ill bet most people spend more than that on fancy bits and peices just to make their bikes look pretty.Put your hand in your pocket, install it and then you can an educated opinion instead of one that comes from total ignorance.Ive seen these fitted to several machines and milage has been better in every case.However results have varied from one bike to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 I plan on using copper based anti-seize. Is that similar to what you mean? Probably not 100%, but most things are better than air. Heat-conductive paste is specialy designed to connect sensors to surfaces or to connect hot electronic items to cooling devices (processors). Connecting means getting rid of all insulating air between the two elements. More of it here Anyway, with HC-paste or without it, the sensor will always have the same temperature, it's only a matter of time. There is such a huge amount of heat coming from the head and only so little going away through the sensor cables, that you will see not very much difference between the several solutions. The worst solution I've seen so far is the one from Moto Spezial. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Put your hand in your pocket, install it and then you can an educated opinion instead of one that comes from total ignorance. Hey Megarad. By all means, leave us have an educated, honest opinion! Have you taken your own advice? Just asking (for the second time), since you hadn't posted direct observations by your own experience, apparently only having "seen these fitted to several machines". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 The worst solution I've seen so far is the one from Moto Spezial. Hey Hubert. Upon what basis do you consider this "the worst solution"? Just asking. It seems there's at least one extremely irritating poster aroud here (moi) who keeps asking for some kind of backup -- ANYTHING AT ALL for otherwise completely unsupported statements that are posted as if they were fact -- No examples, no references, no data, and apparently no direct experience. These things seem to spring forth as if from fountains on a regular basis around here. . . Again, It'd be nice to have something from a known credible independent source to back up the claims, n'est-ce pas? Testing, perhaps? A number (or at least one!) objective, significant, repeatable, qualititive, well conducted field evaluation of some kind?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 I see your point. I have several reasons for my above mentioned opinion. - the head-temp. sensor is for head temperature, not for oil temperature. - head temperature is the basis for how much the mixture should be enriched. Think of your old Guzzi, immediately after it ran you could close the starter valves, despite the fact that the oil still was at ambient temperature. The same should be valid for EFI systems. That's probably the reason why the engineers at Guzzi placed the sensor at exactly this location, very close to the combustion chamber and close to the inlet duct. Opimal location if seen from the above described point of view, I'd say. Now, this MS homebrew solution a) is sitting in a very periphere region of the head, and b ) the sensor gets cooled by the relatively cold oil coming from the cold front of the engine and being further cooled down in the open led hose. This location is not the spot where the music plays (that's how I'd express it in German). The heat comes from the combustion chamber, reaches the outer end of the uppermost cooling fin, part of it goes into the oil, the rest squeezes itself through the plug threads, has to pass through an also in this case necessary layer of heat conductive past, before it finally can give its information to the NTC element. Moto Guzzi is still in business only because they don't develop in every direction the one or other mechanic around the world may find interesting while looking at a customers Goose, cigarette in one and beere in the other hand. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Megarad Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 The first two bikes that these were fitted to were subject to a before and after test. The tests were done one day apart as the bike had to be totally cold (not run that day).It was in winter and quite cool. We tried to have all things as equal as possible with the sensor being the only change. The sensor change was done in the evening. The test involved fitting a lambda probe(oxygen sensor) to the exhaust header and measuring the time it took for the stoichiometric ratio to level off .You can see the ratio change on the meter as the engine warms up. This was done at 50mph or 80kph in top gear on open road early in the morning when there was very little traffic around. As these tests were fairly basic in nature and done over two years ago I don’t have any specifics or notes to offer. From memory the updated sensor not only leaned the mixture of faster but the stoichiometric ratio was leaner overall after a complete warm up of the engine. These basic testes showed similar results on both machines. The only reason we did it again the second time on another bike was to see if the result was similar. Just because it happened on one bike doesn’t necessarily mean it will be the same on another .In these two cases the results were very similar. The first bike tested lives just around the corner from me. It’s an early V11’ green in colour, has a full Staintune exhaust . The owner had always complained of poorer gas mileage in the winter. He claims more consistant milage all year round with the sensor mod. This is a guy that keeps a log of his fuel and mileage details. I have no reason to suspect he would not be truthfull. If you want the whole test results documented then I’m sorry I can’t help you here. If you live in country that is hot all year round or you only ride in warmer weather then I suspect this mod will be of no use. The poor gas mileage with these bikes seems to only be in colder environments. Anyway I have nothing to gain here by bullshitting. This information you can take it or leave it. I post on many forums and are new to this one. Some of you guys come of as realy negative in your attitude towards someone who at the end of the day is just trying help out. I don’t claim to be a Guzzi guru or anything like that. I have been around the block a few times were Guzzis are concerned though. Maybe the fact that I’m new here gives me no credibility. If I had a couple hundred posts to my name maybe there wouldn’t be so many negative doubters . It is understandable though. Fortunately I don’t have feelings so no harm done. Like I said before at 64euro plus postage what have you got to lose. One more thing when we fitted these we used silicone grease liberally on the threads to ensure good heat transfer . You can get it at RadioShack. Len Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ratchethack Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Megarad, I don't mean to be negative, but there are lots of empty claims made here and on all other forums by people who don't have the faintest idea of wot they're talking about. I don't know you from Adam. When you dispense advice here as if it were textbook fact, and as if you were an authority of some kind, without providing any basis for it wotsoever, you will be subject to challenge -- as I b'lieve you -- and I -- and everyone else well should be! This, thankfully, is not a Forum that suffers an over-abundance of fools lightly, or where stuff routinely gets thrown up against the wall shotgun style to see wot sticks without common sense analysis. This is one aspect of this Forum that I believe sets it apart from others, where a frightening avalance of misinformation gets bandied about, repeated, and many of the uninitiated are duped into making expensive, stupid, and occasionally dangerous mistakes. If we're going to have discussion that provides value, wouldn't it make the most sense in order not to mislead here to provide accurate backup info to start with whenever possible, por favor? Is there some reason you haven't installed a MS temp sensor yourself? Enquiring minds (well, you know). . . BTW -- Welcome to the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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