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antmanbee

Replacing my Blown V11 Engine - Have a few questions

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I think what I am going to do is plug the oil pan where the return line goes in an run a hose out of the bottom of the spine breather chamber and cap it, and then periodically drain it.

Unless it causes excessive oil consumption I can't see how it is a good idea to return this to the sump.

The top of the spine hose that went to the air filter box, I will run that line to a small breather/air fliter.

The fat 3/4" S-shaped hose that goes from the underneath/front of the spine to the crankcase breathe tube on the back top of the engine will remain.

 

It has been too much wasted time trying to find a filter that I think will flow oil for the return line.

No return line means no debris or contaminants returning to the oil pan. 

I tried that with my Daytona (same basic set up). It did not work out well, there was too much oil loss. I wanted it to work as I had issues with the spine frame leaking oil due to poor welding. So I wanted to be able to vent the motor to a catch can like a typical roadrace bike. It did not work out well due to the high amount of oil that was in the air being pumped out. I think it has the whole oil separator set up in the spine frame because it needs a way of separating out the oil from the air. Other big block Guzzi motors have also used a system that separates the oil from the air in a tank. You just need something of sufficient volume. You can also use a media like stainless steel wool to help. But you still have to provide a path for the oil to flow back into the sump. I actually like the Guzzi system, except when the frame is not welded properly and leaks / drips oil.

Perhaps your results will be different.

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I think what I am going to do is plug the oil pan where the return line goes in an run a hose out of the bottom of the spine breather chamber and cap it, and then periodically drain it.

Unless it causes excessive oil consumption I can't see how it is a good idea to return this to the sump.

The top of the spine hose that went to the air filter box, I will run that line to a small breather/air fliter.

The fat 3/4" S-shaped hose that goes from the underneath/front of the spine to the crankcase breathe tube on the back top of the engine will remain.

 

It has been too much wasted time trying to find a filter that I think will flow oil for the return line.

No return line means no debris or contaminants returning to the oil pan. 

I tried that with my Daytona (same basic set up). It did not work out well, there was too much oil loss. I wanted it to work as I had issues with the spine frame leaking oil due to poor welding. So I wanted to be able to vent the motor to a catch can like a typical roadrace bike. It did not work out well due to the high amount of oil that was in the air being pumped out. I think it has the whole oil separator set up in the spine frame because it needs a way of separating out the oil from the air. Other big block Guzzi motors have also used a system that separates the oil from the air in a tank. You just need something of sufficient volume. You can also use a media like stainless steel wool to help. But you still have to provide a path for the oil to flow back into the sump. I actually like the Guzzi system, except when the frame is not welded properly and leaks / drips oil.

Perhaps your results will be different.

 

What you could use is a catch can type arrangement in the line thats designed to function as a gravity trap. Oil enters and leaves from the top of the can on its way back to the sump and all the contaminants have the time and space to settle to the bottom of the small receptacle where they can periodically be removed. 

 

Ciao 

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I think what I am going to do is plug the oil pan where the return line goes in an run a hose out of the bottom of the spine breather chamber and cap it, and then periodically drain it.

Unless it causes excessive oil consumption I can't see how it is a good idea to return this to the sump.

The top of the spine hose that went to the air filter box, I will run that line to a small breather/air fliter.

The fat 3/4" S-shaped hose that goes from the underneath/front of the spine to the crankcase breathe tube on the back top of the engine will remain.

 

It has been too much wasted time trying to find a filter that I think will flow oil for the return line.

No return line means no debris or contaminants returning to the oil pan. 

I tried that with my Daytona (same basic set up). It did not work out well, there was too much oil loss. I wanted it to work as I had issues with the spine frame leaking oil due to poor welding. So I wanted to be able to vent the motor to a catch can like a typical roadrace bike. It did not work out well due to the high amount of oil that was in the air being pumped out. I think it has the whole oil separator set up in the spine frame because it needs a way of separating out the oil from the air. Other big block Guzzi motors have also used a system that separates the oil from the air in a tank. You just need something of sufficient volume. You can also use a media like stainless steel wool to help. But you still have to provide a path for the oil to flow back into the sump. I actually like the Guzzi system, except when the frame is not welded properly and leaks / drips oil.

Perhaps your results will be different.

 

What you could use is a catch can type arrangement in the line thats designed to function as a gravity trap. Oil enters and leaves from the top of the can on its way back to the sump and all the contaminants have the time and space to settle to the bottom of the small receptacle where they can periodically be removed. 

 

Ciao 

 

I like that..

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The catch can sounds very cool (I fitted one to my Jaguar XJR for slightly different reasons), but doesn't the oil filter really do this for you anyway?

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The catch can sounds very cool (I fitted one to my Jaguar XJR for slightly different reasons), but doesn't the oil filter really do this for you anyway?

They are trying to remove the debris from the oil return before it gets back to the sump. Better than relying on the sump screen or having the rusty dust like particles go through the sump screen, scour the pump housing before being captured by the filter.

 

Ciao  

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As Phil says, the only part that doesn't see filtered oil in the system is the pump. The bug screen filters out the big chunks, but..

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The catch can sounds very cool (I fitted one to my Jaguar XJR for slightly different reasons), but doesn't the oil filter really do this for you anyway?

They are trying to remove the debris from the oil return before it gets back to the sump. Better than relying on the sump screen or having the rusty dust like particles go through the sump screen, scour the pump housing before being captured by the filter.

 

Ciao  

 

 

 

...I get that.  I'm just wondering if we're over-thinking this.

 

The sump is designed to be where dirty oil is collected, then sent through the pump to the filter.  The pump isn't a precision assembly, like say a bearing, and that dirty sump oil is pumped to the filter to get cleaned.

 

Would even significant amounts of debris in the oil harm the pump?

 

I agree it would be better to have cleaner oil returned from the frame/breather if possible, but is it really a problem worth engineering another filter or catch can that could introduce unintended issues such as lack of flow as discussed above, leaks, other?

 

Just posing the question...

 

 

If one is really concerned about debris in the breather/frame, perhaps do we think the suggestions about cleaning it as well as possible might be the best and simplest approach.  Then just use the stock configuration?

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The pump isn't a precision assembly, like say a bearing

I beg to differ..

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Isnt this one happy part of the frame,, snooosing in oil fumes,, no rust, and after a while everything in there, ( if it was something ) has settled down.  But don t like the idea of extra hot fumy air back into the motor. Might be 1 extra horse  :huh2: with colder air. But what is the right pressure for the V11 ? In my head I want nothing but fresh air in the motor, But dont want to loose compression with no  buttompressure.

Cheers tom.

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I am rather nervous asking but what is bottom pressure?

 

Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk

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Whats to expect from a squarehead with sort of english difficultis  :homer: bottom pressure,, veivaksel, stempel, hm.

Cheers tom.

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I am rather nervous asking but what is bottom pressure?

 

Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk

 

 

Whats to expect from a squarehead with sort of english difficultis  :homer: bottom pressure,, veivaksel, stempel, hm.

Cheers tom.

"Crankcase pressure?"

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Bingo, not to much not to little :mg: , and now time for a large IPA.

Cheers tom

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Any pressure either outward or inward to the crankcase is handled by the hose on the top of the frame that normally goes to the airbox.

I am not using an air box so I will have it go to a small breather filter so that any air that may enter the breather system is filtered.

 

Some bikes more than others will have a tendency to form sludge which we sometimes find in the oil pan when removed for an oil change. 

So no matter how good a job of flushing the spine chamber, more rust is likely to form and flake off from time to time.

 

I will be checking my other Tonti framed bikes too, to discover if any rust has accumulated.

If I am not mistaken I think the lower hoses on the tonti frame go to the cylinder heads that are up higher than the frame barbs so it may not be an issue.

On a Tonti/Ev/Jackal/Bassa the breather system consists of a hose from each cylinder head to frame (at lowest point of system and lower than cylinder head) and the big S/hose from the crankcase to the frame High part of frame) and the line to let it breathe from the frame (highest part) to the airbox.

I suppose it is possible to have the frame fill up with oil from the cylinder head lines but I have not had much that I can recall come out when replacing the lines.

I have not had issues with oil in the airbox on these, although some do. I don't think there is any return line to the sump anywhere.

As usual for me I toss the airbox but leave the breather system intact except for the frame to airbox line that I connect to a small breather filter.

 

The spine breather seems to have the most potential for putting debris into the crankcase,

I don't think it is a good idea.

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 It is a hokey-pokey setup . You live with it or you fix it . 

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