Scud Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Just throwing a thought out there for you red-frame guys... Maybe Guzzi engineers recognized that the engine (not the tranny) was not adequately supported in the early (red) spine frames. In the red-frame bikes, the engine is only attached via two large bolts in the timing cover, and the mated surface with 6 small studs between engine and transmission. Maybe these transmission cracks are due to the engine's torque reaction having nowhere to go but the timing cover and the transmission mounts. And maybe this is also part of the reason the paper timing cover gasket is prone to breaks and leaks. With the 2002 frame (I posted a picture in post #50 of this thread) the subframe is extended to solidly connect the lower rear portion of the engine block directly to the porkchops (the lower bolt that also mounts the tranny) and the main cross-tube of the spine-frame. This, it seems to me, prevents (or at least limits) twisting action through the transmission case - and maybe why we are not seeing too many cracked tranny cases on 2002 and later bikes. An offer you can't refuse? I have a spare lower frame and I would gladly donate it to anyone willing to try to fit it. It's black. You might want to paint it red - and maybe paint the arms silver to match the engine. You'd have to tap two big holes in the engine block - but the casting is very thick there and the holes would go through to the bell-housing (just as they do in the 2002 and later bikes). This means you can get all the metal shavings out and not be worried about getting metal in the crankcase. I might even be able to find a correct pair of bolts and washers. Anybody want to give it a try? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRyter Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I have no doubt the cradle was an add-on fix that Guzzi made from the experience that Docc had. Like the roller rocker issue for the early 8 valves, this is pretty much a hidden warranty, the problem is forgotten and the few parts issued are gone now. Some of these bikes, like mine, have few miles on them and probably never ran into the problem when new. I purchased mine 5 years ago, the bike had 12k miles on, it has 36k now. looking at the photo on post #50, I think you are mentioning a lower frame rail connected to the pork chop? That is probably the elegant fix vs the add-on cradle. It makes sense the torsional twist that we love to feel in a Guzzi might be responsible for cracking the transmission. Obviously my biggest concern is fixing the transmission. If we solve that, then I am game for fixing the frame one way or another. And as I think about it, the real culprit as my riding buddy Darren points out, is the same reason I wear out rear tires: my right wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 My dealer told me they cracked from landing wheel stands. I told him I never wheelied it, but his mechanic did. We didn't talk about it after that. I seem to recall running across the frame brace in the diagrams and theorized it would be a good idea. After struggling to install it, I thought Guzzi dropped it on the injected bikes because of the installation difficulties. When the "long frame" showed up with the braced subframes in 2002, I thought it was all about the complaints of high speed weave and abrupt handling, but the case crack has been reported in significant numbers, always on the left, and I don't remember one on the LongFrames. Seems to me the timing chest leaks are more common on the engines with thick black paint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I'm not usually a hater... but I hate that thick black crinkle bubble peeling flaking farking paint. It peels off the inside of the engine and transmission cases too. What is actually longer compared the red frames? Is the spine itself longer - or is it just that the lower subframe has long arms? From what I can see, the red lower subframes are identical to the black (2002+) ones except for the addition of the bracing arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Well, the wheelbase is longer 2002-2005, 1471mm -> 1490mm (3/4 of an inch is a lot!) . The presumption has always been that the frame was lengthened. The spine frame itself is certainly "different" in other ways. In addition, the front subframe is cross-braced on the GenII-V11, and the lower rear subframe (not the seat subframe) is also cross-braced in addition to the two forward braces that traverse the gearbox. The parts diagrams show totally different frame structures. I believe we have already established that the fork rake (25º) and swingarm is the same across the range ( with the exception of very early Sports that reportedly had 1/2º steeper triple clamps). [i've yet to see a confirmed "early triple" on the First-Gen Sport. Maybe LowRyter's guy can retrieve that part number off the bottom of his lower triple?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scud Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Thanks Docc - I just opened up the parts diagrams for 1999 and 2003 side by side: 1999: http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/1990-2000-moto-guzzi-motorcycles/v-11-sport-mandello-1100-1999-2001/frame-en-v11-sport-mandello.html 2003: http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/2000-up-moto-guzzi-motorcycles/v-11-cat-1100-2003-2004/frame-en-v11-cat-1100-2003-2004.html The spine frame has subtle differences but the subframes are clearly different. Part number 7 (the lower subframe) in both diagrams is the one I have offered if somebody want to try to fit it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 ^^^ That's very generous of you Scud. If I had the need, I'd be on that like a chicken on a June bug.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRyter Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 You might not have seen this is in the thread about my cracked transmission case. Since I haven't been able to find the bell housing cradle, I am getting a few made. Contact me if you want one. Red Frame Bellhousing Bracket. I get 5 for the price of one. Anyone that wants one, the price is $60+ shipping. It will be aluminum and will be waterjetted from the template off my bike. Since it's aluminum it will match the engine and won't need to be painted. So if you want one and to help me defer the cost, let me know. It's no deal breaker for me either way but I hope that this benefits a couple of us here as well as me. Ciao http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19814&p=218299 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Phil Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 You might not have seen this is in the thread about my cracked transmission case. Since I haven't been able to find the bell housing cradle, I am getting a few made. Contact me if you want one. Red Frame Bellhousing Bracket. I get 5 for the price of one. Anyone that wants one, the price is $60+ shipping. It will be aluminum and will be waterjetted from the template off my bike. Since it's aluminum it will match the engine and won't need to be painted. So if you want one and to help me defer the cost, let me know. It's no deal breaker for me either way but I hope that this benefits a couple of us here as well as me. Ciao http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19814&p=218299 PM sent. Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRyter Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Thanks Phil. Anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brlawson Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Thanks Phil. Anyone else? Yes, I'll take one since mine is stripped and easy to get to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowRyter Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Got your PM BR. I'll get with the shop on Monday or Tuesday and try to get an update and provide details for you and Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinus89 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Hey all, After reading this topic, I had a little check of my '00 frame. My black frame does not have the mounting points for that additional support bracket, nor do I have the extra supports hugging the transmission/bell housing on the bottom... In other words: my engine/tranny is only mounted on 3 points: timing cover, upper bolt on the back and lower bolt all the way though at the bottom of the gearbox... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Hey all, After reading this topic, I had a little check of my '00 frame. My black frame does not have the mounting points for that additional support bracket, nor do I have the extra supports hugging the transmission/bell housing on the bottom... In other words: my engine/tranny is only mounted on 3 points: timing cover, upper bolt on the back and lower bolt all the way though at the bottom of the gearbox... Tinus, This is very interesting. We had always thought the RM frame and the early RedFrames were identical except for color What is the wheelbase of the Rosso Mandello? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstallons Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Has anyine researched to see if part #s verify how many frames there are ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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